4 ms·

I know people working in a research lab where the PI refers to some of the members as "slaves" in front of everyone. The power differentials are utterly out of

I know people working in a research lab where the PI refers to some of the members as "slaves" in front of everyone. The power differentials are utterly out of whack. It's not remotely surprising what the results are.

ddavis 8y ago
That's very disappointing to hear. I'm a fifth year PhD student and I tire of hearing things like "this [now automated task] is worth 5 PhD students!" I can't imagine being called a slave.
gww 8y ago
One of my supervisors used to point out various pieces of lab equipment and equated it's value to X PhD's. It was funny and a bit depressing at the same time. EDIT: I do think the culture of referring to trainees as slaves needs to stop. Even in jest it can be quite disheartening to be reminded how beholden to your supervisor you are.
- foobarian 8y ago
  I was at lunch once with my advisor and some visitors from a government lab who was sponsoring us. At one point conversation went into hours and productivity (which was particularly constrained at a government facility) and I distinctly remember my advisor bragging about how he could get his students to work nights and weekends to get something done. I sure don't miss it.
  - gww 8y ago
    It's ridiculous that it's a point of pride for supervisors to overwork their students. Along a similar vein one of my supervisors used to come in on weekends just to see who was there and he would deprecate those he didn't see on Monday.
    - Fomite 8y ago
      It is. It's something I actively try to combat in my lab.
- Fomite 8y ago
  One note (because the abuse of trainees is unacceptable), is that sometimes the "This thing cost X PhD's" thing is used as gripe, not a way to put down students. Basically, making students realize the equipment they're using is expensive, and that tradeoffs exist in the lab.
avs733 8y ago
As a real-boy faculty member it's not just the power differential but the utter unwillingness of other faculty to police the actions of their peers. Literally, they will observe that behaviors are wrong. They will tut-tut that so and so shouldn't do that. But given the chance to actually take action, they suddenly are unable to find their voice. It's embarrassing. Everyone claims collegiality is important...but this isn't collegiality. It is the co-option of collegiality to protect bad faith actors. These are not accidental things or one offs or misunderstandings...these are malicous assholes who thing they are gods gift to research. The reality is the people who behave like this rarely make good researchers. When you hear a story about a faculty member behaving poorly, I guarantee you that other faculty knew and did nothing. Remember that. The only reason they are letting their colleague fall under the bus now is because their behavior has reached the point where there are going to be consequences. They don't want to get caught up in that so they run like rats from a person who's bad behavior they have long turned a blind eye too. One of my favorite things to do to disrupt these discussions is to consciously reframe discussions of 'students v. faculty' type nonsense into 'people v. people.' If you don't let them implicitly otherize a group but rather make them do it explicitly they won't. These types are totally okay talking in demeaning ways about students but when you refer to students as people they balk.
- barry-cotter 8y ago
  > It's embarrassing. Everyone claims collegiality is important...but this isn't collegiality. It is the co-option of collegiality to protect bad faith actors. These are not accidental things or one offs or misunderstandings...these are malicous assholes who thing they are gods gift to research. The reality is the people who behave like this rarely make good researchers. Ah, but if they do no one gives a damn. No one cares about anything except whether the PI gets good publications.
  - avs733 8y ago
    Im more pessimistic. They care, just not enough to rock the boat. I think that's worse. They acknowledge that a disempowered group is unfairly harmed and, from a position of power, actively choose to do nothing.
distant_hat 8y ago
Its not really that uncommon. Especially with students from India/China etc where their status in the country depends on the PI's good graces this can be quite complicated. Students will literally do anything to make sure the PI is happy. The worst exploiters are professors from the same countries. They'll sometimes often only hire students from the same countries. I knew a case where a PI was caught screwing a student on the lab bench. She was dismissed, he was sent on a sabbatical.

ddavis 8y ago

That's very disappointing to hear. I'm a fifth year PhD student and I tire of hearing things like "this [now automated task] is worth 5 PhD students!" I can't imagine being called a slave.

gww 8y ago

One of my supervisors used to point out various pieces of lab equipment and equated it's value to X PhD's. It was funny and a bit depressing at the same time. EDIT: I do think the culture of referring to trainees as slaves needs to stop. Even in jest it can be quite disheartening to be reminded how beholden to your supervisor you are.

foobarian 8y ago
I was at lunch once with my advisor and some visitors from a government lab who was sponsoring us. At one point conversation went into hours and productivity (which was particularly constrained at a government facility) and I distinctly remember my advisor bragging about how he could get his students to work nights and weekends to get something done. I sure don't miss it.
- gww 8y ago
  It's ridiculous that it's a point of pride for supervisors to overwork their students. Along a similar vein one of my supervisors used to come in on weekends just to see who was there and he would deprecate those he didn't see on Monday.
  - Fomite 8y ago
    It is. It's something I actively try to combat in my lab.
Fomite 8y ago
One note (because the abuse of trainees is unacceptable), is that sometimes the "This thing cost X PhD's" thing is used as gripe, not a way to put down students. Basically, making students realize the equipment they're using is expensive, and that tradeoffs exist in the lab.

avs733 8y ago

As a real-boy faculty member it's not just the power differential but the utter unwillingness of other faculty to police the actions of their peers. Literally, they will observe that behaviors are wrong. They will tut-tut that so and so shouldn't do that. But given the chance to actually take action, they suddenly are unable to find their voice. It's embarrassing. Everyone claims collegiality is important...but this isn't collegiality. It is the co-option of collegiality to protect bad faith actors. These are not accidental things or one offs or misunderstandings...these are malicous assholes who thing they are gods gift to research. The reality is the people who behave like this rarely make good researchers. When you hear a story about a faculty member behaving poorly, I guarantee you that other faculty knew and did nothing. Remember that. The only reason they are letting their colleague fall under the bus now is because their behavior has reached the point where there are going to be consequences. They don't want to get caught up in that so they run like rats from a person who's bad behavior they have long turned a blind eye too. One of my favorite things to do to disrupt these discussions is to consciously reframe discussions of 'students v. faculty' type nonsense into 'people v. people.' If you don't let them implicitly otherize a group but rather make them do it explicitly they won't. These types are totally okay talking in demeaning ways about students but when you refer to students as people they balk.

barry-cotter 8y ago
> It's embarrassing. Everyone claims collegiality is important...but this isn't collegiality. It is the co-option of collegiality to protect bad faith actors. These are not accidental things or one offs or misunderstandings...these are malicous assholes who thing they are gods gift to research. The reality is the people who behave like this rarely make good researchers. Ah, but if they do no one gives a damn. No one cares about anything except whether the PI gets good publications.
- avs733 8y ago
  Im more pessimistic. They care, just not enough to rock the boat. I think that's worse. They acknowledge that a disempowered group is unfairly harmed and, from a position of power, actively choose to do nothing.

distant_hat 8y ago

Its not really that uncommon. Especially with students from India/China etc where their status in the country depends on the PI's good graces this can be quite complicated. Students will literally do anything to make sure the PI is happy. The worst exploiters are professors from the same countries. They'll sometimes often only hire students from the same countries. I knew a case where a PI was caught screwing a student on the lab bench. She was dismissed, he was sent on a sabbatical.