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I finished it, but found it pretentious, boring as hell and thin on content. In my opinion (which is not shared widely ;-)) it would have made a good 15 page pa

I finished it, but found it pretentious, boring as hell and thin on content. In my opinion (which is not shared widely ;-)) it would have made a good 15 page pamphlet. The rest is turgid verbiage(imo). I can understand someone for whom recursion(say) is some kind of mind blowing concept getting some value out of the book, but I've never understood why programmers find it fascinating. It has a few ultra basic concepts, stretched across multiple pages with lots of padding, then endlessly repeated in minor variations with lots of faux insight.

gruseom 16y ago
In my opinion (which is not shared widely ;-)) Share. Hofstadter always struck me as the ultimate dilettante.
- mreid 16y ago
  Dilettante - from the Italian "to delight". I think that's fair. Hofstadter doesn't make any claims to being an expert in any of the areas he discusses (at least not in 1979). I think of GEB as an extremely idiosyncratic but well written piece of popular science. He provides plenty of further reading for those who want to delve into the various topics he touches upon.
mreid 16y ago
Out of genuine curiosity, what were expecting to get out of it before you started reading it? Also, if you found the proof of Gödel's incompleteness and RNA transcription "ultra basic concepts" my hat is off to you. I'm a programmer with a maths background[1] and I've read the book twice–once when I was 19 and again when I was 26. Both times I really enjoyed the digressions, language games, dialogues, and playfulness of the book. I got the sense Hofstadter was deeply curious and enthusiastic about the topics he explores and did a wonderful job at sharing that enthusiasm. In my opinion it is a great example of writing for the sheer joy of exploring ideas. I can see how approaching such a book with a "just the facts please" attitude might end badly. [1]: I've been told I'm a strange math/programmer though. I enjoy a wide range of literature too: Cervantes, Nabokov, Wallace, and Coetzee being some of my favourite authors.
- plinkplonk 16y ago
  "Out of genuine curiosity, what were expecting to get out of it before you started reading it? " I wasn't expecting anything but a good read.Which is exactly what I didn't get. The writing style is (imo) very turgid on the other end of the spectrum from (say) pg's crisp and incisive style. Feynman is another example of a writer who exposes his interest in a wide variety of stuff(Brazilian drumming for eg) but he isn't yawn inducing. I hate writing that tests readers' patience by prolonged aimless meandering. Fwiw I didn't like _why's book on Ruby either.So there does seem to be a pattern there somewhere ;-) I have no problems if other people like such books. Different folks different strokes and all that. I was just expressing my opinion. "Also, if you found the proof of Gödel's incompleteness and RNA transcription "ultra basic concepts" my hat is off to you." I am sorry but these were basic to me or I could find crisper explanations elsewhere. It has been a while since I read the book (I read this when I was 19 or so iirc) but I would guess that a few hundred pages could be lopped off with "computer programs, music and some kinds of drawing exhibit recursive structure" and giving a few examples each. I don't remember the RNA transcription bit, but I would be very surprised if it didn't meander all over the place without saying anything much for a few dozen pages or so. There is plenty of popular science and non fiction written crisply, interestingly and in an uncondescending fashion which explores ideas without boring the reader silly.That said I completely acknowledge this is a matter of taste and that one man's food is another's poison. The question to which that post was a reply did ask for opinions of HNers on the book. And my opinion is that GEB is overhyped and overblown and I said as much. YMMV.And that is as it should be.
  - mreid 16y ago
    Thanks for the answers. I wasn't disputing your opinion, I just wanted to know your experience differed so much from mine. De gustibus non est disputandum. It seems the main point of difference is that you found the meandering digressions annoying whereas I really enjoyed them. For me, understanding the topics (computation, recursion, use/mention, self-reference) wasn't the main reason for reading the book. The blurring of form and function in the writing and general playfulness were just as important and anything but boring. PG, Feynman, and _why are useful points of reference. I like all three but recognise how different the latter one is to the former two. A similar distinction would be between Coetzee (precision) vs. Wallace (verbosity). I strenuously suggest you avoid Wallace even though I think both authors are amazing. :) Having enjoyed Wallace's non-fiction book on infinity, "Everything and More", I recommended it to a work mate (also a programmer) and he hated it. Upon reflection, I think he has similar tastes to you and would probably not like GEB either. Out of interest, what style of fiction (if any) do you enjoy?

gruseom 16y ago

In my opinion (which is not shared widely ;-)) Share. Hofstadter always struck me as the ultimate dilettante.

mreid 16y ago
Dilettante - from the Italian "to delight". I think that's fair. Hofstadter doesn't make any claims to being an expert in any of the areas he discusses (at least not in 1979). I think of GEB as an extremely idiosyncratic but well written piece of popular science. He provides plenty of further reading for those who want to delve into the various topics he touches upon.

mreid 16y ago

Out of genuine curiosity, what were expecting to get out of it before you started reading it? Also, if you found the proof of Gödel's incompleteness and RNA transcription "ultra basic concepts" my hat is off to you. I'm a programmer with a maths background[1] and I've read the book twice–once when I was 19 and again when I was 26. Both times I really enjoyed the digressions, language games, dialogues, and playfulness of the book. I got the sense Hofstadter was deeply curious and enthusiastic about the topics he explores and did a wonderful job at sharing that enthusiasm. In my opinion it is a great example of writing for the sheer joy of exploring ideas. I can see how approaching such a book with a "just the facts please" attitude might end badly. [1]: I've been told I'm a strange math/programmer though. I enjoy a wide range of literature too: Cervantes, Nabokov, Wallace, and Coetzee being some of my favourite authors.

plinkplonk 16y ago
"Out of genuine curiosity, what were expecting to get out of it before you started reading it? " I wasn't expecting anything but a good read.Which is exactly what I didn't get. The writing style is (imo) very turgid on the other end of the spectrum from (say) pg's crisp and incisive style. Feynman is another example of a writer who exposes his interest in a wide variety of stuff(Brazilian drumming for eg) but he isn't yawn inducing. I hate writing that tests readers' patience by prolonged aimless meandering. Fwiw I didn't like _why's book on Ruby either.So there does seem to be a pattern there somewhere ;-) I have no problems if other people like such books. Different folks different strokes and all that. I was just expressing my opinion. "Also, if you found the proof of Gödel's incompleteness and RNA transcription "ultra basic concepts" my hat is off to you." I am sorry but these were basic to me or I could find crisper explanations elsewhere. It has been a while since I read the book (I read this when I was 19 or so iirc) but I would guess that a few hundred pages could be lopped off with "computer programs, music and some kinds of drawing exhibit recursive structure" and giving a few examples each. I don't remember the RNA transcription bit, but I would be very surprised if it didn't meander all over the place without saying anything much for a few dozen pages or so. There is plenty of popular science and non fiction written crisply, interestingly and in an uncondescending fashion which explores ideas without boring the reader silly.That said I completely acknowledge this is a matter of taste and that one man's food is another's poison. The question to which that post was a reply did ask for opinions of HNers on the book. And my opinion is that GEB is overhyped and overblown and I said as much. YMMV.And that is as it should be.
- mreid 16y ago
  Thanks for the answers. I wasn't disputing your opinion, I just wanted to know your experience differed so much from mine. De gustibus non est disputandum. It seems the main point of difference is that you found the meandering digressions annoying whereas I really enjoyed them. For me, understanding the topics (computation, recursion, use/mention, self-reference) wasn't the main reason for reading the book. The blurring of form and function in the writing and general playfulness were just as important and anything but boring. PG, Feynman, and _why are useful points of reference. I like all three but recognise how different the latter one is to the former two. A similar distinction would be between Coetzee (precision) vs. Wallace (verbosity). I strenuously suggest you avoid Wallace even though I think both authors are amazing. :) Having enjoyed Wallace's non-fiction book on infinity, "Everything and More", I recommended it to a work mate (also a programmer) and he hated it. Upon reflection, I think he has similar tastes to you and would probably not like GEB either. Out of interest, what style of fiction (if any) do you enjoy?