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Do you think there is a class of players who don't want to feel clever for outsmarting a predictable AI?

by lainga 8y ago

Someone1234 8y ago
All players want to win. The level of difficulty is equal to the level of accomplishment, but games have to be made for the average rather than the exceptional, so many better than average players won't be challenged by the difficulty. Nobody is going to invest the resources into a real AI just for the hardest difficulty modes. If it cannot be used on Easy/Normal, it simply isn't happening.
- bryondowd 8y ago
  Considering how many successful games are released targeting a niche market, there's probably a pretty sizable niche market of 'better than average players' that some studio could take advantage of. Market size is only half the equation, the other half is the cost to develop the feature. As methods and technology improve, the cost to make a smart AI for a complex game system should decrease. As the cost decreases, you need less of the overall gaming market to make a return. Might just be a matter of time before somebody takes a gamble on a tough AI, has a huge success, and then everyone starts to emulate it.
  - trexmix 8y ago
    But smart AI isn't fun to play against. Take Chess- AI is smart to the point of domination against players. In a FPS setting you just have an aimbot. In a RTS game you would have an AI with passable macro and insane micro. I think the only real chance of a smart AI being fun is in a pure strategy game (I believe it's GalCiv 2 with the epic story about a backstabbing, scheming AI). Smart AI is easier to make than a mediocre, fun AI. Optimality is is a clear goal. Fun AI is less clear and requires a unique blend of technical and design expertise.
    - wst_ 8y ago
      That's why smart AI must also have smart scaling factors. Maybe some randomness. Maybe some imperfections, like players do. I think we should design the best and smartest possible AI and scale it down for average players. Currently we have dumb AI boosted for advanced players. And boosted very naively - by giving them more hp or make them deal more damage.
    - bryondowd 8y ago
      Seems like you're conflating Smart AI with an optimal game playing algorithm. An aimbot isn't hard time create, sure, but it's not exactly smart, either. Nor is it fun. I agree it's harder to make mediocre but fun AI, and that's what current shooters do. The point is that there's theoretically a level above that, harder to achieve but not impossible, where the AI behaves like a human would. A reasonable balance of predictability and unpredictability, skill, strategy, but not perfection. In a real time strategy, it seems we're approaching that level with that StarCraft ai. Need to perhaps restrain the ai's ability to micro by fuzzing it's ability to control quickly and precisely in bursts, and then continue to advance it's strategic ability, but I expect it'll get there eventually. In the case of shooters. It might involve giving the AI a noisy view of the game world, to force it to approach the problem the way a human does. Humans don't just have an accuracy rate or a timer between an event entering their screen and their ability to shoot at it. A human has to filter through visual noise to notice a target, and decide how to engage. A human has to use an arm and hand and muscle memory to manipulate a mouse to get bullets on target. Those are all imperfect controls, with a certain amount of uncertainty between intent and action. All that is further influenced by how prepared the human was, how much they have to adjust their previous plans, or recenter their attention. It's a difficult task to identify all the things that actually make a game difficult for a human and make sure the AI faces a close approximation of the same problems. Then it's even more difficult to get an AI to a point where it can compete on a human level, not to mention various human levels. That doesn't mean it's not possible or not worthwhile.
- blattimwind 8y ago
  > Nobody is going to invest the resources into a real AI just for the hardest difficulty modes. Which is really sad because "hard" difficulties in most games just mean that you have less health and NPCs do more damage or their "cheat factors" are turned to 11. They're still the same stupid NPCs as on "easy", but now they just headshot you behind cover and have zero recoil / perfect accuracy. It's technically difficult but not really fun. One of the most obvious examples of this is GTA 5 where all NPCs are equally dumb, but "harder NPCs" just mean that they tank huge amounts of damage, while they have very little aim delay and essentially perfect accuracy. Due to various bugs in the game they'll often shoot through walls or even entire buildings: technically hard, but not fun.
  - bryondowd 8y ago
    The "tank huge amounts of damage" thing has annoyed me going back to the old RPG games on NES and SNES. How do we make the game harder as the player progresses? Give enemies more HP and DMG values. Ok, how does the player combat this? Have him aquire levels/skills/equipment that increases his own DMG and survivability to restore things to the same balance they were earlier in the game. Repeat ad nauseum. Some variations restrict the player enhancements to DMG so they're forced to chip away at enemies in long dull fights. Others restrict survivability, which tends to result in shorter, more random fights, while others allow near infinite enhancement, but lock it behind boring, redundant grinding.
    - blattimwind 8y ago
      Vanilla Skyrim is an especially annoying specimen in this category, because it has this weird "S curve". With low levels most enemies are way stronger than you (ok, that's good, a level 5 player shouldn't be able to defeat city guards, for example), then there is a "growth phase" up to ~level 40-70ish (depending on play style) where the player is on par or better than NPCs, and after that the player's abilities level off and NPCs continue to grow stronger, so a high level player has a hard time again against NPCs of a class that she could previously defeat easily. Which makes no sense at all. Luckily for Skyrim the game thrives on mods anyway.
- lainga 8y ago
  How does that fit into games like Dwarf Fortress where "fun" is in losing? Does winning count as achieving whatever goals the players set for themselves before reaching game-over?
  - mikekchar 8y ago
    Some players play DF with specific goals in mind. Others play in order to have a story like experience. In the latter case, the "fun" in losing is only "fun" if it creates a kind of dramatic tension. DF is also unusual in that worlds are intended to be played over and over again. "Losing a game" only adds more interesting history to the world, so "winning" and "losing" loses a lot of meaning. What's "fun" is playing again and having that historical "loss" influence your next game. Like I said, though, many players choose a goal oriented play through. Achieving that goal is a win for them (and often they abandon the fortress and start a new world afterwards). I remember one person bitterly complaining on the forums that the game was too easy because they had already won the game. After they succeeded in becoming the mountain home for their civ, they felt the game was over. Sometimes it's hard to explain other ways to play games ;-)
- rishav_sharan 8y ago
  Not 8f you are playing Dwarf Fortress. Losing is fun :)

Do you think there is a class of players who don't want to feel clever for outsmarting a predictable AI?

by lainga 8y ago

Do you think there is a class of players who don't want to feel clever for outsmarting a predictable AI?

All players want to win. The level of difficulty is equal to the level of accomplishment, but games have to be made for the average rather than the exceptional, so many better than average players won't be challenged by the difficulty. Nobody is going to invest the resources into a real AI just for the hardest difficulty modes. If it cannot be used on Easy/Normal, it simply isn't happening.

bryondowd 8y ago
Considering how many successful games are released targeting a niche market, there's probably a pretty sizable niche market of 'better than average players' that some studio could take advantage of. Market size is only half the equation, the other half is the cost to develop the feature. As methods and technology improve, the cost to make a smart AI for a complex game system should decrease. As the cost decreases, you need less of the overall gaming market to make a return. Might just be a matter of time before somebody takes a gamble on a tough AI, has a huge success, and then everyone starts to emulate it.
- trexmix 8y ago
  But smart AI isn't fun to play against. Take Chess- AI is smart to the point of domination against players. In a FPS setting you just have an aimbot. In a RTS game you would have an AI with passable macro and insane micro. I think the only real chance of a smart AI being fun is in a pure strategy game (I believe it's GalCiv 2 with the epic story about a backstabbing, scheming AI). Smart AI is easier to make than a mediocre, fun AI. Optimality is is a clear goal. Fun AI is less clear and requires a unique blend of technical and design expertise.
  - wst_ 8y ago
    That's why smart AI must also have smart scaling factors. Maybe some randomness. Maybe some imperfections, like players do. I think we should design the best and smartest possible AI and scale it down for average players. Currently we have dumb AI boosted for advanced players. And boosted very naively - by giving them more hp or make them deal more damage.
  - bryondowd 8y ago
    Seems like you're conflating Smart AI with an optimal game playing algorithm. An aimbot isn't hard time create, sure, but it's not exactly smart, either. Nor is it fun. I agree it's harder to make mediocre but fun AI, and that's what current shooters do. The point is that there's theoretically a level above that, harder to achieve but not impossible, where the AI behaves like a human would. A reasonable balance of predictability and unpredictability, skill, strategy, but not perfection. In a real time strategy, it seems we're approaching that level with that StarCraft ai. Need to perhaps restrain the ai's ability to micro by fuzzing it's ability to control quickly and precisely in bursts, and then continue to advance it's strategic ability, but I expect it'll get there eventually. In the case of shooters. It might involve giving the AI a noisy view of the game world, to force it to approach the problem the way a human does. Humans don't just have an accuracy rate or a timer between an event entering their screen and their ability to shoot at it. A human has to filter through visual noise to notice a target, and decide how to engage. A human has to use an arm and hand and muscle memory to manipulate a mouse to get bullets on target. Those are all imperfect controls, with a certain amount of uncertainty between intent and action. All that is further influenced by how prepared the human was, how much they have to adjust their previous plans, or recenter their attention. It's a difficult task to identify all the things that actually make a game difficult for a human and make sure the AI faces a close approximation of the same problems. Then it's even more difficult to get an AI to a point where it can compete on a human level, not to mention various human levels. That doesn't mean it's not possible or not worthwhile.
blattimwind 8y ago
> Nobody is going to invest the resources into a real AI just for the hardest difficulty modes. Which is really sad because "hard" difficulties in most games just mean that you have less health and NPCs do more damage or their "cheat factors" are turned to 11. They're still the same stupid NPCs as on "easy", but now they just headshot you behind cover and have zero recoil / perfect accuracy. It's technically difficult but not really fun. One of the most obvious examples of this is GTA 5 where all NPCs are equally dumb, but "harder NPCs" just mean that they tank huge amounts of damage, while they have very little aim delay and essentially perfect accuracy. Due to various bugs in the game they'll often shoot through walls or even entire buildings: technically hard, but not fun.
- bryondowd 8y ago
  The "tank huge amounts of damage" thing has annoyed me going back to the old RPG games on NES and SNES. How do we make the game harder as the player progresses? Give enemies more HP and DMG values. Ok, how does the player combat this? Have him aquire levels/skills/equipment that increases his own DMG and survivability to restore things to the same balance they were earlier in the game. Repeat ad nauseum. Some variations restrict the player enhancements to DMG so they're forced to chip away at enemies in long dull fights. Others restrict survivability, which tends to result in shorter, more random fights, while others allow near infinite enhancement, but lock it behind boring, redundant grinding.
  - blattimwind 8y ago
    Vanilla Skyrim is an especially annoying specimen in this category, because it has this weird "S curve". With low levels most enemies are way stronger than you (ok, that's good, a level 5 player shouldn't be able to defeat city guards, for example), then there is a "growth phase" up to ~level 40-70ish (depending on play style) where the player is on par or better than NPCs, and after that the player's abilities level off and NPCs continue to grow stronger, so a high level player has a hard time again against NPCs of a class that she could previously defeat easily. Which makes no sense at all. Luckily for Skyrim the game thrives on mods anyway.
lainga 8y ago
How does that fit into games like Dwarf Fortress where "fun" is in losing? Does winning count as achieving whatever goals the players set for themselves before reaching game-over?
- mikekchar 8y ago
  Some players play DF with specific goals in mind. Others play in order to have a story like experience. In the latter case, the "fun" in losing is only "fun" if it creates a kind of dramatic tension. DF is also unusual in that worlds are intended to be played over and over again. "Losing a game" only adds more interesting history to the world, so "winning" and "losing" loses a lot of meaning. What's "fun" is playing again and having that historical "loss" influence your next game. Like I said, though, many players choose a goal oriented play through. Achieving that goal is a win for them (and often they abandon the fortress and start a new world afterwards). I remember one person bitterly complaining on the forums that the game was too easy because they had already won the game. After they succeeded in becoming the mountain home for their civ, they felt the game was over. Sometimes it's hard to explain other ways to play games ;-)
rishav_sharan 8y ago
Not 8f you are playing Dwarf Fortress. Losing is fun :)