8 ms·

Prototype iPhones That Hackers Use to Research Apple’s Most Sensitive Code

203 points by runesoerensen 8y ago

abalone 8y ago
Is there any info on how GrayKey worked? My understanding is that in recent models the SEP was supposed to prevent that kind of brute forcing of passcodes at the hardware level — and also enforce a secure boot chain that prevents loading hostile firmware (which it looks like GrayKey did based on screen shots). This would seem to involve an exploit of the SEP which is very serious... or was there some simpler exploit? Anyone?
- earenndil 8y ago
  I believe that graykey was able to try passcodes at a faster-than-should-be-allowed rate, which does indicate a flaw but not a serious one.
  - saagarjha 8y ago
    That sounds plenty serious to me.
    - thisacctforreal 8y ago
      There is a hard limit of 80ms per attempt, from the number of PBKDF2 iterations tuned for the secure enclave.
      - saagarjha 8y ago
        Which means that it can get through the entire six digit password keyspace in under a day.
      - abalone 8y ago
        It's much more than that. According to Apple's iOS security whitepaper, the SEP is supposed to enforce escalating time delays in between attempts -- up to one hour after the 9th attempt. And survive restarts. It certainly seems like GrayKey bypassed a fundamental SEP protection, which would constitute a very serious flaw. The SEP protections are supposed to be a whole 'nother level (which is what this article gets at.. it's Hard to even get at the firmware). If that aspect of the SEP is compromised, what else about it is? This is extra disturbing because Apple's "fix" was to disconnect unauthorized peripherals -- not, apparently, a fix to the SEP itself. This is why I am stunned there was not more coverage of this. It's smoke that indicates a really fundamental flaw in the SEP. [1] https://www.apple.com/business/site/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf https://www.apple.com/business/site/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.... (page 18)
briandear 8y ago
Those phones aren’t “grey market,” they are black market.
- bch 8y ago
  Less important, but also colour-related and entertaining, the mixed metaphor “white elephant in the room”.
gruez 8y ago
>He’s defensive when I ask how he got the phones. >“Well, I didn’t steal any device. I actually paid for them,” Sounds like the "it fell off a truck" excuse.
- Someone1234 8y ago
  It could be more nuanced than that. Some Chinese manufacturers have been known to have a "night shift." Which is to say that during the day they produce a manufacturer's products, and during the night they produce an off-label or unauthorised version. These phones all had Foxconn labels on them, there was no Apple branding or logos. It is possible they were unauthorized but not "stolen." As I said, it is a nuance, and one I imagine Apple's legal team wouldn't be distracted by. PS - I am in no way defending anything. Just simply explaining there's other possible explanations for how unauthorised devices exist.
  - wmf 8y ago
    That doesn't really work for Apple products because they require unique components (like the SoC) that can't be bought anywhere and presumably the inventory is tracked carefully (e.g. 10,000 A12s go into the factory and ~10,000 iPhones go out).
    - bpye 8y ago
      What about iPhones that "failed" QC?
Despegar 8y ago
>In 2017, however, Solnik was hired by Apple to work on its security team, specifically on the so-called red team, which audits and hacks the company’s products. His talk at Black Hat had apparently impressed the folks at Cupertino. A few weeks later, however, he abruptly left the company, according to multiple sources. >The full story of Solnik’s short stint at Apple is a closely-guarded secret. Motherboard spoke to dozens of people and was unable to confirm the specifics around his leaving the company; one source within Apple told me information about Solnik is “incredibly restricted,” and another confirmed that even within Apple, few know exactly what happened. Why hire someone that was previously selling "offensive security tools and exploits to governments" into a sensitive role like that? It's incredibly naive to think that just because you're employing them now that they are actually loyal to you. Surely the insider threat is greater than any expertise that person has. Just pay them a bug bounty for specific information and keep them at arms length. Finding high integrity security researchers to hire is more important than raw talent.
- evolvedcleaning 8y ago
  Money talks, if they paid him enough they could buy his loyalty Similar parallels exist in many walks of life. Those guarding assets need incentives to be loyal In a case of a potentially bad actor/blackest hat, you make them an offer they can’t refuse. Take lots of money and stay quiet, or we will unleash our government pit bulls.
  - golergka 8y ago
    Not all people have money as their only and highest motivation. For many, once they get at a comfortable level, other things become more important.
  - MagnumOpus 8y ago
    In the case of a black hat selling exploits to governments, that government can always outbid a company. They can offer to pay more plus not kill/imprison his family members.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
gok 8y ago
> “They are stolen from the factory and development campus,” a person who sells these devices on Twitter told Motherboard. Haha yeah that and employees' homes and cars being burglarized.
- wanderingjew 8y ago
  Sometimes it's just Apple employees leaving them at a bar and journalists holding them for ransom.
- kbenson 8y ago
  Which makes me wonder why even go with one story over the other. They both contain theft, so if you accept that there was theft, then it's illegal to buy them, and illegal for them to sell them knowing that. I guess maybe it's so they look less like a common criminal and more like a white-collar criminal that only steals from super rich companies?
saagarjha 8y ago
There are some issues with the article: > I used one of these devices and obtained “root” access on it, giving me almost total control over the phone; gaining root access allows researchers to probe many of the phone’s most important processes and components. Root access does not give total control on iOS. There are many other things that stand in the way of "full access". > “Switchboard devices” are another term for some dev-fused phones, which refers to the proprietary operating system they run. No. Development-fused devices can run iOS; "Switchboard devices" are devices that have not had iOS flashed on them and are still running Switchboard.
jd20 8y ago
> The phone boots into an operating system known as “Switchboard,” which has a no-nonsense black background and is intended for testing different functionalities on the phone. I think the article confuses the meaning of "dev-fused" hardware, with what OS is actually installed on the phone. When I used to work at Apple, I always understood "dev-fused" to mean a device on which you could install unsigned builds of iOS. Internally, Apple puts out new builds of iOS daily. The engineers building features on top of iOS need to install these builds, to do their work. A normal iPhone from a store won't take these unsigned builds, hence the need for these dev-fused devices. There are regular builds like what a customer would get, debug builds with lots of logging and debugging checks enabled, and even bare-bones builds like switchboard, for employees who are not UI-disclosed or work in factories. As someone building higher-level iOS features, all my dev-fused devices just ran a normal looking iOS, unlike what the article describes. > Two people showed Motherboard how to get root access on the phone we used; it was a trivial process that required using the login: “root” and a default password: “alpine.” Oh boy, that sure brings back memories!
- saagarjha 8y ago
  Specifically, developer-fused hardware allows for stuff like setting boot arguments and having them actually get passed to the kernel. Basically, it lets you get in the way of and modify the "chain of trust" that the bootloader → kernel → userland processes normally ensures.
  - jd20 8y ago
    Thanks for clarifying, I figured I was generalizing it a bit.
    - saagarjha 8y ago
      To be honest, I think the daily builds are signed by B&I as well, so you can install them on production hardware provided you have valid AppleConnect credentials (which I think just authorizes the install). You just won't be able to debug the kernel, etc.
mikepurvis 8y ago
Mathew Solnik is not impressed, full text: "The article that has been published regarding me is a complete hit piece. It provides no hard evidence and is based on pure rumor. It’s sad to see the publication stope to such levels. This is not worth any further response and will get none. End of Story." https://twitter.com/msolnik/status/1103395763068043264 https://twitter.com/msolnik/status/1103395763068043264
- yborg 8y ago
  I notice he didn't deny the use of dev mode debug devices. I personally don't see what the big deal is apart from implying magical hacker skills - reverse engineering even from a debug device is still impressive work.
- roywiggins 8y ago
  A pretty classic non-denial denial. "No hard evidence" and "pure rumor" is not technically a denial- he's not saying the story is false.
- lawnchair_larry 8y ago
  No hard evidence of what exactly? His reply doesn’t make much sense. Other than maybe he doesn’t think it looks flattering when you’re abruptly let go from 2 jobs and your consulting venture doesn’t pan out.
  - tptacek 8y ago
    This is pretty silly. Solnik could probably get drunk, spin round in a circle 100 times quickly, and fall ass-backwards into better consulting gigs than almost anyone on HN.
strictnein 8y ago
I was wondering if they were talking about Jin, and yeah, it's the first line of the article. Worth a follow, if not simply to see some interesting prototype hardware and tools pop up from time to time. https://twitter.com/Jin_Store https://twitter.com/Jin_Store
xhruso00 8y ago
Wonder how would they re-sell dev-fused Apple car ;)
- neop1x 8y ago
  they would re-sell the motherboard from it

203 points by runesoerensen 8y ago

Is there any info on how GrayKey worked? My understanding is that in recent models the SEP was supposed to prevent that kind of brute forcing of passcodes at the hardware level — and also enforce a secure boot chain that prevents loading hostile firmware (which it looks like GrayKey did based on screen shots). This would seem to involve an exploit of the SEP which is very serious... or was there some simpler exploit? Anyone?

earenndil 8y ago
I believe that graykey was able to try passcodes at a faster-than-should-be-allowed rate, which does indicate a flaw but not a serious one.
- saagarjha 8y ago
  That sounds plenty serious to me.
  - thisacctforreal 8y ago
    There is a hard limit of 80ms per attempt, from the number of PBKDF2 iterations tuned for the secure enclave.
    - saagarjha 8y ago
      Which means that it can get through the entire six digit password keyspace in under a day.
    - abalone 8y ago
      It's much more than that. According to Apple's iOS security whitepaper, the SEP is supposed to enforce escalating time delays in between attempts -- up to one hour after the 9th attempt. And survive restarts. It certainly seems like GrayKey bypassed a fundamental SEP protection, which would constitute a very serious flaw. The SEP protections are supposed to be a whole 'nother level (which is what this article gets at.. it's Hard to even get at the firmware). If that aspect of the SEP is compromised, what else about it is? This is extra disturbing because Apple's "fix" was to disconnect unauthorized peripherals -- not, apparently, a fix to the SEP itself. This is why I am stunned there was not more coverage of this. It's smoke that indicates a really fundamental flaw in the SEP. [1] https://www.apple.com/business/site/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf https://www.apple.com/business/site/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.... (page 18)

briandear 8y ago

Those phones aren’t “grey market,” they are black market.

bch 8y ago
Less important, but also colour-related and entertaining, the mixed metaphor “white elephant in the room”.

gruez 8y ago

>He’s defensive when I ask how he got the phones. >“Well, I didn’t steal any device. I actually paid for them,” Sounds like the "it fell off a truck" excuse.

Someone1234 8y ago
It could be more nuanced than that. Some Chinese manufacturers have been known to have a "night shift." Which is to say that during the day they produce a manufacturer's products, and during the night they produce an off-label or unauthorised version. These phones all had Foxconn labels on them, there was no Apple branding or logos. It is possible they were unauthorized but not "stolen." As I said, it is a nuance, and one I imagine Apple's legal team wouldn't be distracted by. PS - I am in no way defending anything. Just simply explaining there's other possible explanations for how unauthorised devices exist.
- wmf 8y ago
  That doesn't really work for Apple products because they require unique components (like the SoC) that can't be bought anywhere and presumably the inventory is tracked carefully (e.g. 10,000 A12s go into the factory and ~10,000 iPhones go out).
  - bpye 8y ago
    What about iPhones that "failed" QC?

Despegar 8y ago

>In 2017, however, Solnik was hired by Apple to work on its security team, specifically on the so-called red team, which audits and hacks the company’s products. His talk at Black Hat had apparently impressed the folks at Cupertino. A few weeks later, however, he abruptly left the company, according to multiple sources. >The full story of Solnik’s short stint at Apple is a closely-guarded secret. Motherboard spoke to dozens of people and was unable to confirm the specifics around his leaving the company; one source within Apple told me information about Solnik is “incredibly restricted,” and another confirmed that even within Apple, few know exactly what happened. Why hire someone that was previously selling "offensive security tools and exploits to governments" into a sensitive role like that? It's incredibly naive to think that just because you're employing them now that they are actually loyal to you. Surely the insider threat is greater than any expertise that person has. Just pay them a bug bounty for specific information and keep them at arms length. Finding high integrity security researchers to hire is more important than raw talent.

evolvedcleaning 8y ago
Money talks, if they paid him enough they could buy his loyalty Similar parallels exist in many walks of life. Those guarding assets need incentives to be loyal In a case of a potentially bad actor/blackest hat, you make them an offer they can’t refuse. Take lots of money and stay quiet, or we will unleash our government pit bulls.
- golergka 8y ago
  Not all people have money as their only and highest motivation. For many, once they get at a comfortable level, other things become more important.
- MagnumOpus 8y ago
  In the case of a black hat selling exploits to governments, that government can always outbid a company. They can offer to pay more plus not kill/imprison his family members.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

gok 8y ago

> “They are stolen from the factory and development campus,” a person who sells these devices on Twitter told Motherboard. Haha yeah that and employees' homes and cars being burglarized.

wanderingjew 8y ago
Sometimes it's just Apple employees leaving them at a bar and journalists holding them for ransom.
kbenson 8y ago
Which makes me wonder why even go with one story over the other. They both contain theft, so if you accept that there was theft, then it's illegal to buy them, and illegal for them to sell them knowing that. I guess maybe it's so they look less like a common criminal and more like a white-collar criminal that only steals from super rich companies?

saagarjha 8y ago

There are some issues with the article: > I used one of these devices and obtained “root” access on it, giving me almost total control over the phone; gaining root access allows researchers to probe many of the phone’s most important processes and components. Root access does not give total control on iOS. There are many other things that stand in the way of "full access". > “Switchboard devices” are another term for some dev-fused phones, which refers to the proprietary operating system they run. No. Development-fused devices can run iOS; "Switchboard devices" are devices that have not had iOS flashed on them and are still running Switchboard.

jd20 8y ago

> The phone boots into an operating system known as “Switchboard,” which has a no-nonsense black background and is intended for testing different functionalities on the phone. I think the article confuses the meaning of "dev-fused" hardware, with what OS is actually installed on the phone. When I used to work at Apple, I always understood "dev-fused" to mean a device on which you could install unsigned builds of iOS. Internally, Apple puts out new builds of iOS daily. The engineers building features on top of iOS need to install these builds, to do their work. A normal iPhone from a store won't take these unsigned builds, hence the need for these dev-fused devices. There are regular builds like what a customer would get, debug builds with lots of logging and debugging checks enabled, and even bare-bones builds like switchboard, for employees who are not UI-disclosed or work in factories. As someone building higher-level iOS features, all my dev-fused devices just ran a normal looking iOS, unlike what the article describes. > Two people showed Motherboard how to get root access on the phone we used; it was a trivial process that required using the login: “root” and a default password: “alpine.” Oh boy, that sure brings back memories!

saagarjha 8y ago
Specifically, developer-fused hardware allows for stuff like setting boot arguments and having them actually get passed to the kernel. Basically, it lets you get in the way of and modify the "chain of trust" that the bootloader → kernel → userland processes normally ensures.
- jd20 8y ago
  Thanks for clarifying, I figured I was generalizing it a bit.
  - saagarjha 8y ago
    To be honest, I think the daily builds are signed by B&I as well, so you can install them on production hardware provided you have valid AppleConnect credentials (which I think just authorizes the install). You just won't be able to debug the kernel, etc.

mikepurvis 8y ago

Mathew Solnik is not impressed, full text: "The article that has been published regarding me is a complete hit piece. It provides no hard evidence and is based on pure rumor. It’s sad to see the publication stope to such levels. This is not worth any further response and will get none. End of Story." https://twitter.com/msolnik/status/1103395763068043264 https://twitter.com/msolnik/status/1103395763068043264

yborg 8y ago
I notice he didn't deny the use of dev mode debug devices. I personally don't see what the big deal is apart from implying magical hacker skills - reverse engineering even from a debug device is still impressive work.
roywiggins 8y ago
A pretty classic non-denial denial. "No hard evidence" and "pure rumor" is not technically a denial- he's not saying the story is false.
lawnchair_larry 8y ago
No hard evidence of what exactly? His reply doesn’t make much sense. Other than maybe he doesn’t think it looks flattering when you’re abruptly let go from 2 jobs and your consulting venture doesn’t pan out.
- tptacek 8y ago
  This is pretty silly. Solnik could probably get drunk, spin round in a circle 100 times quickly, and fall ass-backwards into better consulting gigs than almost anyone on HN.

strictnein 8y ago

I was wondering if they were talking about Jin, and yeah, it's the first line of the article. Worth a follow, if not simply to see some interesting prototype hardware and tools pop up from time to time. https://twitter.com/Jin_Store https://twitter.com/Jin_Store

xhruso00 8y ago

Wonder how would they re-sell dev-fused Apple car ;)

neop1x 8y ago
they would re-sell the motherboard from it