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Updated Microsoft Store App Developer Agreement: New Revenue Share

179 points by ductionist 8y ago

jawns 8y ago
Here's how the new payment structure works: > When Microsoft delivers a customer through other methods (tracked by an OCID), such as when the customer discovers the app in a Microsoft Store collection, through Microsoft Store search, or through any other Microsoft-owned properties, then you will receive 85 percent of the revenue from that purchase. > When there is no CID or OCID attributed to a purchase, in the instance of a web search, you will receive 95 percent revenue. So this is all about rewarding organic discovery, or paid discovery outside of Microsoft channels. In other words, by allowing your app to be discovered first through the Microsoft Store search, you're paying Microsoft what amounts to a 10% commission. And then, regardless of how it was discovered, you're paying 5% to Microsoft just for being on the platform. It will be interesting to see what effect this has on the ecosystem. On the one hand, it seems like a reasonable shifting of costs. If you rely mostly on Microsoft for acquiring new customers, then Microsoft should get a little bit more of a cut, and if you rely mostly on your own marketing methods, then it should get less. But on the other hand, part of the strength of an ecosystem-based business model is that it's a one-stop shop, and one would think that Microsoft would want to incentivize discovery happening within that ecosystem, not to disincentivize it.
- ductionist 8y ago
  That sounds about right, although 5% (or 15%) is a pretty good deal IMO for worldwide payment processing, installer and update distribution, DRM, and their built-in tools like crash reporting, push notifications, analytics, affiliation, and attribution.
  - valuearb 8y ago
    It’s insanely good deal. MSFT has to be losing money on that.
    - AlexandrB 8y ago
      What? How? Of the services on offer, only payment processing has significant cost to Microsoft. Things like crash reporting are solved problems whose cost should be approximately equal to the cost of hosting the data.
      - ductionist 8y ago
        I'd add hosting on top of that - like Apple, Google, etc., they don't charge you for distributing your app (which could be hefty, per paid transaction, if you have a low-converting trial or freemium app).
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - busterarm 8y ago
        PayPal has established the absolute rock-bottom industry-floor of 2.9% + $0.30 for payment processing + fraud reduction. Fraud reduction accounts for the majority of that percentage. Patreon has established that they will completely go out of business at 5%. Steam is taking 30% and Epic is taking 12%. Salaries, servers and regulation are expensive. Microsoft offering 5% is a steal.
        SkyPuncher 8y ago
        > PayPal has established the absolute rock-bottom industry-floor of 2.9% + $0.30 for payment processing + fraud reduction. This is neither unique to PayPal or the actual floor. 2.9% + (roughly) $0.30 is pretty much the standard across all public facing credit card processors like PayPal (and their subsidiary Braintree), Stripe, Amazon Pay, Authorize.net, and more. I have heard rumors Stripe offers rates as low as 1.8% for large volume processors. Adyen charges $0.12 + 0.6% + interchange fee making them extremely lucrative for their customers (including Uber, Netflix, Etsy, Spotify). Given Microsoft's size and expertise, I'd anticipate they are operating close to interchange rates around $0.10 + between 0.8% and 1.6%.
  - renholder 8y ago
    >...and their built-in tools like crash reporting... I'm assuming you mean if it has Azure Analytics packaged into it? Otherwise, I've never heard of WER (read: Watson) being available external of Microsoft; which could have been (and still could be, plausibly) a huge trove of information (if we're talking purely on a bug trends for various devices/flavours perspective).
    - smileybarry 8y ago
      If you're registered on their developer portal, you can upload public symbols (exports only) of your builds and receive stacks & problem signatures of any matching WER dump. I work for a small-to-mid-sized infosec company (with no special Microsoft partnership) and we've gotten WER crash reports of our UI component this way.
- stephenhuey 8y ago
  So if they are browsing your website, decide they’ll probably purchase it, but then later they open up the Microsoft store and search for it there, you lose money you would’ve had if they’d immediately downloaded it from a link on your website?
  - ductionist 8y ago
    If they click your link (that includes the `?cid` parameter) while they're on your website, I believe the `cid` value is cookied/stored with their Microsoft Store profile, and will be respected even if they buy later directly from the Store. If they visit your website but don't click the link, then there's no way for the Store to attribute the sale to your website, so you'll probably be charged full freight (15%).
    - chipperyman573 8y ago
      Can you just include an invisible iframe with that link so the cookie gets placed?
  - tialaramex 8y ago
    Yup. Same if the customer thinks of buying your product at your own brand store, but then forgets, later they see it in a different store and buy it there. They pay the same RRP, but you see a smaller slice because the store keeps a cut. Is this a problem? Not necessarily, if you're so sure customers would come back to your store then you can just refuse to sell it to other stores except as a retail product (so they couldn't afford to offer the same price as you) It can be a problem if the store owner has some special privileges you don't have. Maybe they're the only one licensed to sell booze in the whole country. Or, take Apple, the only ones able to sell apps that actually work out of the box in an iPhone. So far as I know, Microsoft aren't yet as abusive as Apple here. But I suppose that isn't helped by the fact that Microsoft's store isn't exactly a wild success.
  - ehsankia 8y ago
    Hmm, I'm not sure what the case is, but it feels like direct search for an app by name shouldn't count. I'm not sure if there's an easy way though to differentiate a direct search and a general search term, depending on the app name.
- taurath 8y ago
  So it’s worth 10% if someone uses the search bar in the store? Or if it’s on a top100 list? Those top100 are probably the apps that are most likely to push back against a 15% cut though.
  - KorematsuFred 8y ago
    They might have backdoor negotiations on the revshare any ways.
  - NicoJuicy 8y ago
    Live of the momentum, I don't think so. I see a lot of Google ads going to apps and once they are there. Stop the ads. Smart move
  - connicpu 8y ago
    Considering it's only half of the cut Apple takes 15% isn't very high
- omouse 8y ago
  It's obvious from that structure that Microsoft realizes they are part of a larger ecosystem and that they aren't a dominant channel. > if you rely mostly on your own marketing methods, then it should get less That's usually how it is. You rely on your own website and blog for organic results and Google or Facebook or some other channel (billboards, TV, podcasts, etc.) for paid advertising. Microsoft and other app stores don't really fit into this equation, they're only good for partnership deals and SEO is harder to do in an app store. Microsoft is just recognizing the reality for customers and realizing that they can possibly make up for it in volume. If I'm saving 10% from this new fee structure, that's more cash that I can re-invest into advertising in outside channels.
  - keerthiko 8y ago
    > That's usually how it is. That's usually how it should be. But if you collect payments through Apple App Store or Google Play because your apps are available on their platforms, even if customers didn't discover it from the stores but through your own marketing methods, the platforms get the full 30%. There are some ways to circumvent this, but not really. [assumed flow is potential customer sees marketing/advertisement, clicks to website/ad, or goes to app store and searches for your app to download it, pays from within the app]
    - lemoncucumber 8y ago
      The Mac would be a better comparison than iOS. On the Mac, developers are free to circumvent the Mac App Store entirely and keep 100% of the revenue (minus whatever it costs them to process the payments, distribute the binaries, etc.) And in fact this change specifically excludes Xbox (and, curiously, all games in general), which is the (remaining) Microsoft platform that's closest to iOS in terms of being locked down.
      - keerthiko 8y ago
        Mac is not a better comparison because we're talking about the Microsoft Windows Store in particular here, not "all software that can be run on Windows computers." You are still free to circumvent all royalties to Microsoft by not listing your product on their store at all and marketing externally and keep 100% of the revenue, which is similar to the Mac, but the Windows Store is more akin to iTunes or Google Play.
- int_19h 8y ago
  The app is going to be in the Store either way tho, it's only a question of how the user ends up there.
- no_wizard 8y ago
  Well, Microsoft is at an impasse here: I work for a large Enterprise, and we of course use Windows almost exclusively, and perhaps this is not their target, yet I will say this: None of our apps are going through that store. They're all coming from direct from vendor purchases, of which Microsoft gets Zero. under this model, it encourages (perhaps) some of the smaller/medium Enterprise vendors to give up having to deal with a payment system at all, in exchange for simplified distribution (if I read this correctly) and no more payment handling, and in exchange MS gets a 5% cut. This to me makes complete sense. Most of the Windows ecosystem for software is mostly out side of Microsoft's hands. Indeed, it is the #1 strength of the platform beside its ubiquity. I actually think this is a brilliant insight on the side of Microsoft, by inverting this model they get a non-zero slice of a a pie they previously did not have. It also encourages more vendors to uptake the distribution model via their Store, which I think is ultimately what they want more than a cut of sales in aggregate. Say nothing of the home user, who beyond MS Office perhaps never transacts at all with Microsoft when they buy other software.
nxc18 8y ago
I feel like given the circumstances, Microsoft should probably make distribution free and collect no revenue, at least until the platform becomes popular. There are costs to targeting the Windows platform, especially if you're doing things their new preferred way (UWP). Primarily a slow, difficult to work with development kit. Lots of mysterious crashes that you can't do much about, lots of leaky abstractions over COM. If anything, Microsoft should be paying developers to target their store. I do personally prefer modern apps and the experience of the store, I just know not to reach for it first. As a customer I would appreciate more apps, they need to figure out a way to make the platform more appealing for developers.
- yunyu 8y ago
  They've attempted to do that before: https://www.theverge.com/2013/3/19/4124548/microsoft-paying-developers-cash-for-windows-apps https://www.theverge.com/2013/3/19/4124548/microsoft-paying-... All that lead to was a bunch of similar looking apps of questionable quality flooding the store.
  - ktjfi 8y ago
    That was absolutely retarded. I remember they went around universities handing out Lumia 925 mobiles to anybody who uploaded a few apps... imagine the quality of the apps. If only they had spent that money on actually making the OS better. Imagine that.
    - shawnz 8y ago
      > If only they had spent that money on actually making the OS better. Imagine that. What do you think they were trying to do? Apps are what make an OS good. Even if they caused 10,000 trash apps to be created and only 100 good ones, that's still 100 more good apps than they had before.
      - ktjfi 8y ago
        Not having a new toolkit every version would've been good. Allowing users of WP 7.* to update to 8, good too. Allowing all users of 8.1 to update to 10. Also their own apps were poor. I remember Skype for WP 8 was absolutely unusable. MS is composed of many teams and many of them clearly didn't give a shit about WP.
Animats 8y ago
What was Microsoft's cut before?
- ductionist 8y ago
  30% on one-off purchases of apps and IAPs, and 15% of subscriptions.
tanilama 8y ago
It is not surprising that in terms of develop engagement, Microsoft is at a huge disadvantage. They need some differentiation to attract developers.
- ductionist 8y ago
  I think that's part of it. It's also a more open platform, so they have to compete with, say, Stripe or Digital River etc. on their commission percentages to get the big Windows software titles on board.
nerdywordy 8y ago
I'd be interested to take the pulse of HN: When you are looking for a new Windows app, does opening up the store even cross your mind? I nearly always go to a web search + download first. Or if it's something dev-centric I look at scoop or chocolatey. The Windows Store is far, far behind in my mindshare. There are a few glimmers of hope though. Python has begun to distribute via the store which is cool. And the Linux distros available are helpful in some edge cases or for a quick dev environment.
- hateful 8y ago
  My issues with the store apps are that most of them act like "apps" and not like "programs/applications". For example, they close on their own with no warning. I tried to use the store version of the Pandora app, but it would be closed when I left it paused for too long. Same with Facebook's Messenger. I don't want that. I want to be able to control when I open and close a program.
  - MentallyRetired 8y ago
    That doesn't happen to me with the messenger app... My biggest issue is the amount of unofficial apps that look official. It's a trust issue. If I go to the website I at least know that I'm getting legit software.
  - fartcannon 8y ago
    If you want to be in control, Windows is the wrong platform for you.
- pjmlp 8y ago
  Yes, for example I am using Adobe XD and Paint.NET installed from the store. I also have a couple of other games and utility apps. Having the sandbox around is really nice from my user point of view. Then as Windows/Web dev, I do like the rebooted version of COM as well.
- gpm 8y ago
  I have - once opened up the app store to search for things on windows. It was after searching the web - but I barely use windows so the fact that I did at all is pretty remarkable really. I found things closer to what I was looking for than I did on the web too, but still came to the conclusion that what I was looking for doesn't exist (a good non-mobile app for marking up pdf's with a stylus - the closest I've found is Microsoft Edge of all things).
arkitaip 8y ago
This is an amazing deal for Win devs and one of many needed efforts if MS intends for the Microsoft Store to remain the number one platform for software downloads on Windows. Currently I'm seeing much more dev excitement for platforms like Electron where you can slap a wrapper around your existing web tech but damn would I love to see a renaissance for native Windows apps. I feel like Microsoft botched native Windows dev by having many and competing eco systems, some which feel incredibly outdated. It says a lot when even they prefer Electron for stuff like Visual Studio Code.
burtonator 8y ago
That's cool... assuming you can get in: https://getpolarized.io/2019/02/28/dear-app-stores-dont-block-apps-lead-with-the-carrot.html https://getpolarized.io/2019/02/28/dear-app-stores-dont-bloc... I found out that our app was crushed after 2 weeks of development. Basically, they won't let us in because we use Electron. Electron is developed in part (primarily) due to Github which they now own. TWO WEEKS I spent porting to the MS App Store only to have them just crush us ... It's great that I can make 95% of zero... But seriously. If anyone from Microsoft is listening - please unblock us ;) I'm considering submitting this as a PWA but it's missing a lot of features as a PWA.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- jpobst 8y ago
  Seems like there might be more to it than that, since Slack is written in Electron and is in the Windows Store.
  - opencl 8y ago
    There is something more to it: Slack is really popular and MS really wanted it on the store so they let them ignore the rule.
    - WorldMaker 8y ago
      Slack isn't the only Electron app in the MS Store. There's an entire guide on building Electron apps for the Store: https://electronjs.org/docs/tutorial/windows-store-guide https://electronjs.org/docs/tutorial/windows-store-guide Microsoft devs have even contributed to the tool mentioned in that article (and Microsoft is listed in the MIT license copyright statement): https://github.com/felixrieseberg/electron-windows-store https://github.com/felixrieseberg/electron-windows-store
    - burtonator 8y ago
      The "more to it" is covered in the article. They don't want things 'browsing the web' without you being forced to use MS Edge.
rchaud 8y ago
I can understand Microsoft having an app store when Windows Phone and Windows RT were still around, but now Windows is all x86, so people aren't even installing desktop apps anymore outside of games and work-specific apps (say, R), that wouldn't appear on the app store anyway. What's the most popular app on Windows Store anyway? I use Windows 10 every day and I've never noticed anything outside of Bejeweled, Candy Crush and other "mobile" type games.
- WorldMaker 8y ago
  A lot of classic x86 Win32 apps are in the Store these days, too. It is a safer way to buy and install such things. (Photoshop, iTunes, Office, etc.) Windows is continuing to expand to ARM even without phones right now. The HoloLens 2 is reported to be built around a Qualcomm Snapdragon. Windows 10 ARM tablets/netbooks are a product again, in trying to compete with Chrome OS, and it isn't a repeat of the Windows "RT" tablets because Windows 10 on ARM now supports x86 emulation and a lot of classic 32-bit Win32 applications. Just because you currently don't have a use for the Store doesn't mean that no one has a use for the Store. It's nice finally having a proper central app installer/updater without every application developer installing their own baroque updater and running it on every Windows startup. Getting rid of the Apple Updater alone by installing iTunes from the Windows Store is such a relief.
airstrike 8y ago
I'm surprised it isn't 100% – it should have been so from the outset. It's not like Microsoft really needs the revenue from the half-dozen apps available in their store right now. What they need is momentum. If I were in charge of making this decision I would pull the levers on every incentive I can give developers, cause God knows most people don't even remember the MS Store exists...
- rubbingalcohol 8y ago
  Compared to the massive cut Apple takes on their app stores Microsoft's revenue split seems pretty generous. I downvoted your comment because you aren't being intellectually honest to suggest it makes sense for them to provide payment processing, update management and DRM for free to app developers when at the very least they'd be losing big on the credit card processing side. So your comment reads as an elitist jab against Microsoft and not actual constructive criticism.
  - airstrike 8y ago
    I am being intellectually honest. Users make the platform. Microsoft should recognize they are dead last in this race and bite the bullet to provide developers with a clear incentive to develop for the MS store. Apple takes the massive cut they do in their app store because developers can't really afford not to pay for that level of access to users. One day when (IF!) Microsoft's store becomes relevant like that, they can think about what share they're entitled to Finally, but also importantly, I don't know where in God's green world you got "elitism" from... which is pretty rich coming from someone calling my comment intellectually dishonest and "not actual constructive criticism".
  - drewmol 8y ago
    I read the comment as a suggestion to temporarily subsidise the cost of providing payment processing, update management and DRM for free to app developers in exchange for momentum/traction which I find intellectualy honest criticism of MS play. In reality this revenue sharing strategy may have evolved from temporarily subsidise into reduce our margins and landed on the 15/5 pc royalty described in this announcement.
pjc50 8y ago
They don't quite require that you log into your desktop with an online account to use the store, but the route around this is non-obvious.
speeq 8y ago
Nice move! I hope that Google & Apple will reduce their 30% tax someday..
- ehsankia 8y ago
  I think this system would work well for game platforms too, such as Steam. A big point of contention for Steam is, how much the platform does for advertising your game. By having two separate taxes depending on how the game was found, you can have the best of both worlds. If you do your own brand building and advertising, then those sales get a better cut, while the platform can also get their cut for the advertising they do. This also aligns the incentives on what the platforms advertises, to some extent.
  - themacguffinman 8y ago
    Steam already relinquishes their cut if the game is bought via a third party retailer. It costs nothing to generate or activate Steam keys outside the Steam store.
- mrjesus 8y ago
  30% take is pretty standard across a lot of industries when dealing with affiliate arrangements.
muststopmyths 8y ago
Microsoft is like a competitor in a Three-legged race (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-legged_race https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-legged_race) except both runners are running in opposite directions. You have one side that's actively working to make Windows obsolete and another that's flailing about trying to make it relevant somehow. I'm a bitter ex-Windows Phone user, so my perspective could be colored.
- titanix2 8y ago
  I was a WP7&8 user as well as developer and yes the whole story left me a bitter taste, especially at the end. I had fun getting phones for free, participating at MS hackhatons, making friends and of course learning to develop mobile apps but it seems every decisions by MS during after Mango have been against the consumer. Also at the time the store took 30% as well...
bdz 8y ago
>The new fee structure excludes all games and any purchases on Xbox consoles. Interesting considering the rise of Epic Store
z3t4 8y ago
I tried adding a web app to the store. Its extremely complicated compared to adding a hosted web app to chrome, where you just need an app manifest. For the windows store you need a bunch of xml files and it seems you must use their IDE. I want to build the package manually via command line so I can understand each step and then automate it.
nbevans 8y ago
This is a smart move that will drive more traffic to the Windows Store. They should have done this ages ago!
nickpp 8y ago
Desperation move. Microsoft is probably looking at its internal Store numbers and realizing it is a failure. I guess this is the final attempt. We'll see if it works.
- nickflood 8y ago
  They were talking about this change in 2017, and actually said it will come in 2018,so they kind of actually took too long to implement this. That said, I'd say the Store is not breaking any records. It looks like their reaction to that is to allow other stores on Windows while taking a step back and concentrating on being a good platform.
bitL 8y ago
Will this kill Steam? I suspect that's their main adversary as in mobile space they are non-existing, yet they can't dominate gaming space on PC.
- chipperyman573 8y ago
  Maybe, but from a user perspective steam is incredible. They were the first major game distributor to introduce a 2 week no-questions-asked refund period, in-home streaming works amazingly (even shooting games work at an acceptable level), their DRM isn't egregious (for example, charging back only revokes the licences that were charged back on, it doesn't close your entire account like on Xbox), and the updates Valve releases for the client are consistently good. The only problem I can remember them having is their entire lack of support, and apparently they have great support now. Unless people stop offering games on Steam, I don't plan to buy them anywhere else.
  - bitL 8y ago
    It's not about buyers, but publishers. If a publisher gets 95% of revenue by being exclusively marketed by MS, versus 70% on Steam, they might team up with MS instead. Surely if MS dominates the space after some time, they increase fee, but nobody thinks more than a quarter-two ahead in gaming industry.
    - chipperyman573 8y ago
      I think in most cases you're correct, but store exclusives are somewhat common right now, and users tend to hate it (google "metro exodus controversy" and you'll see what I mean - and that wasn't even exclusive to one store, you just got a discount for buying it from Epic). That said, I don't have access to any data about sales - it's possible that just as many people buy it regardless of what store it's sold on. But I would suspect that is unlikely given how easy it is to pirate something and gamers' tendencies to believe they're owed a game.
- muststopmyths 8y ago
  Games are still 30%, so no. Apparently Microsoft believes that there is demand for a Windows Store and its apps, but games on the Windows Store are so successful that they don't need the cut. I would not have thought that possible, but I don't have access to Microsoft's business metrics.
duado 8y ago
The Microsoft App Store is a complete graveyard so it hardly matters what they do or don’t do with it.
m-p-3 8y ago
If only they did this while Windows Phone was still a thing, maybe (and a big MAYBE) it would have fared better in terms of developer engagement compared to iOS and Android.

179 points by ductionist 8y ago

Here's how the new payment structure works: > When Microsoft delivers a customer through other methods (tracked by an OCID), such as when the customer discovers the app in a Microsoft Store collection, through Microsoft Store search, or through any other Microsoft-owned properties, then you will receive 85 percent of the revenue from that purchase. > When there is no CID or OCID attributed to a purchase, in the instance of a web search, you will receive 95 percent revenue. So this is all about rewarding organic discovery, or paid discovery outside of Microsoft channels. In other words, by allowing your app to be discovered first through the Microsoft Store search, you're paying Microsoft what amounts to a 10% commission. And then, regardless of how it was discovered, you're paying 5% to Microsoft just for being on the platform. It will be interesting to see what effect this has on the ecosystem. On the one hand, it seems like a reasonable shifting of costs. If you rely mostly on Microsoft for acquiring new customers, then Microsoft should get a little bit more of a cut, and if you rely mostly on your own marketing methods, then it should get less. But on the other hand, part of the strength of an ecosystem-based business model is that it's a one-stop shop, and one would think that Microsoft would want to incentivize discovery happening within that ecosystem, not to disincentivize it.

ductionist 8y ago
That sounds about right, although 5% (or 15%) is a pretty good deal IMO for worldwide payment processing, installer and update distribution, DRM, and their built-in tools like crash reporting, push notifications, analytics, affiliation, and attribution.
- valuearb 8y ago
  It’s insanely good deal. MSFT has to be losing money on that.
  - AlexandrB 8y ago
    What? How? Of the services on offer, only payment processing has significant cost to Microsoft. Things like crash reporting are solved problems whose cost should be approximately equal to the cost of hosting the data.
    - ductionist 8y ago
      I'd add hosting on top of that - like Apple, Google, etc., they don't charge you for distributing your app (which could be hefty, per paid transaction, if you have a low-converting trial or freemium app).
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
    - busterarm 8y ago
      PayPal has established the absolute rock-bottom industry-floor of 2.9% + $0.30 for payment processing + fraud reduction. Fraud reduction accounts for the majority of that percentage. Patreon has established that they will completely go out of business at 5%. Steam is taking 30% and Epic is taking 12%. Salaries, servers and regulation are expensive. Microsoft offering 5% is a steal.
      - SkyPuncher 8y ago
        > PayPal has established the absolute rock-bottom industry-floor of 2.9% + $0.30 for payment processing + fraud reduction. This is neither unique to PayPal or the actual floor. 2.9% + (roughly) $0.30 is pretty much the standard across all public facing credit card processors like PayPal (and their subsidiary Braintree), Stripe, Amazon Pay, Authorize.net, and more. I have heard rumors Stripe offers rates as low as 1.8% for large volume processors. Adyen charges $0.12 + 0.6% + interchange fee making them extremely lucrative for their customers (including Uber, Netflix, Etsy, Spotify). Given Microsoft's size and expertise, I'd anticipate they are operating close to interchange rates around $0.10 + between 0.8% and 1.6%.
- renholder 8y ago
  >...and their built-in tools like crash reporting... I'm assuming you mean if it has Azure Analytics packaged into it? Otherwise, I've never heard of WER (read: Watson) being available external of Microsoft; which could have been (and still could be, plausibly) a huge trove of information (if we're talking purely on a bug trends for various devices/flavours perspective).
  - smileybarry 8y ago
    If you're registered on their developer portal, you can upload public symbols (exports only) of your builds and receive stacks & problem signatures of any matching WER dump. I work for a small-to-mid-sized infosec company (with no special Microsoft partnership) and we've gotten WER crash reports of our UI component this way.
stephenhuey 8y ago
So if they are browsing your website, decide they’ll probably purchase it, but then later they open up the Microsoft store and search for it there, you lose money you would’ve had if they’d immediately downloaded it from a link on your website?
- ductionist 8y ago
  If they click your link (that includes the `?cid` parameter) while they're on your website, I believe the `cid` value is cookied/stored with their Microsoft Store profile, and will be respected even if they buy later directly from the Store. If they visit your website but don't click the link, then there's no way for the Store to attribute the sale to your website, so you'll probably be charged full freight (15%).
  - chipperyman573 8y ago
    Can you just include an invisible iframe with that link so the cookie gets placed?
- tialaramex 8y ago
  Yup. Same if the customer thinks of buying your product at your own brand store, but then forgets, later they see it in a different store and buy it there. They pay the same RRP, but you see a smaller slice because the store keeps a cut. Is this a problem? Not necessarily, if you're so sure customers would come back to your store then you can just refuse to sell it to other stores except as a retail product (so they couldn't afford to offer the same price as you) It can be a problem if the store owner has some special privileges you don't have. Maybe they're the only one licensed to sell booze in the whole country. Or, take Apple, the only ones able to sell apps that actually work out of the box in an iPhone. So far as I know, Microsoft aren't yet as abusive as Apple here. But I suppose that isn't helped by the fact that Microsoft's store isn't exactly a wild success.
- ehsankia 8y ago
  Hmm, I'm not sure what the case is, but it feels like direct search for an app by name shouldn't count. I'm not sure if there's an easy way though to differentiate a direct search and a general search term, depending on the app name.
taurath 8y ago
So it’s worth 10% if someone uses the search bar in the store? Or if it’s on a top100 list? Those top100 are probably the apps that are most likely to push back against a 15% cut though.
- KorematsuFred 8y ago
  They might have backdoor negotiations on the revshare any ways.
- NicoJuicy 8y ago
  Live of the momentum, I don't think so. I see a lot of Google ads going to apps and once they are there. Stop the ads. Smart move
- connicpu 8y ago
  Considering it's only half of the cut Apple takes 15% isn't very high
omouse 8y ago
It's obvious from that structure that Microsoft realizes they are part of a larger ecosystem and that they aren't a dominant channel. > if you rely mostly on your own marketing methods, then it should get less That's usually how it is. You rely on your own website and blog for organic results and Google or Facebook or some other channel (billboards, TV, podcasts, etc.) for paid advertising. Microsoft and other app stores don't really fit into this equation, they're only good for partnership deals and SEO is harder to do in an app store. Microsoft is just recognizing the reality for customers and realizing that they can possibly make up for it in volume. If I'm saving 10% from this new fee structure, that's more cash that I can re-invest into advertising in outside channels.
- keerthiko 8y ago
  > That's usually how it is. That's usually how it should be. But if you collect payments through Apple App Store or Google Play because your apps are available on their platforms, even if customers didn't discover it from the stores but through your own marketing methods, the platforms get the full 30%. There are some ways to circumvent this, but not really. [assumed flow is potential customer sees marketing/advertisement, clicks to website/ad, or goes to app store and searches for your app to download it, pays from within the app]
  - lemoncucumber 8y ago
    The Mac would be a better comparison than iOS. On the Mac, developers are free to circumvent the Mac App Store entirely and keep 100% of the revenue (minus whatever it costs them to process the payments, distribute the binaries, etc.) And in fact this change specifically excludes Xbox (and, curiously, all games in general), which is the (remaining) Microsoft platform that's closest to iOS in terms of being locked down.
    - keerthiko 8y ago
      Mac is not a better comparison because we're talking about the Microsoft Windows Store in particular here, not "all software that can be run on Windows computers." You are still free to circumvent all royalties to Microsoft by not listing your product on their store at all and marketing externally and keep 100% of the revenue, which is similar to the Mac, but the Windows Store is more akin to iTunes or Google Play.
int_19h 8y ago
The app is going to be in the Store either way tho, it's only a question of how the user ends up there.
no_wizard 8y ago
Well, Microsoft is at an impasse here: I work for a large Enterprise, and we of course use Windows almost exclusively, and perhaps this is not their target, yet I will say this: None of our apps are going through that store. They're all coming from direct from vendor purchases, of which Microsoft gets Zero. under this model, it encourages (perhaps) some of the smaller/medium Enterprise vendors to give up having to deal with a payment system at all, in exchange for simplified distribution (if I read this correctly) and no more payment handling, and in exchange MS gets a 5% cut. This to me makes complete sense. Most of the Windows ecosystem for software is mostly out side of Microsoft's hands. Indeed, it is the #1 strength of the platform beside its ubiquity. I actually think this is a brilliant insight on the side of Microsoft, by inverting this model they get a non-zero slice of a a pie they previously did not have. It also encourages more vendors to uptake the distribution model via their Store, which I think is ultimately what they want more than a cut of sales in aggregate. Say nothing of the home user, who beyond MS Office perhaps never transacts at all with Microsoft when they buy other software.

nxc18 8y ago

I feel like given the circumstances, Microsoft should probably make distribution free and collect no revenue, at least until the platform becomes popular. There are costs to targeting the Windows platform, especially if you're doing things their new preferred way (UWP). Primarily a slow, difficult to work with development kit. Lots of mysterious crashes that you can't do much about, lots of leaky abstractions over COM. If anything, Microsoft should be paying developers to target their store. I do personally prefer modern apps and the experience of the store, I just know not to reach for it first. As a customer I would appreciate more apps, they need to figure out a way to make the platform more appealing for developers.

yunyu 8y ago
They've attempted to do that before: https://www.theverge.com/2013/3/19/4124548/microsoft-paying-developers-cash-for-windows-apps https://www.theverge.com/2013/3/19/4124548/microsoft-paying-... All that lead to was a bunch of similar looking apps of questionable quality flooding the store.
- ktjfi 8y ago
  That was absolutely retarded. I remember they went around universities handing out Lumia 925 mobiles to anybody who uploaded a few apps... imagine the quality of the apps. If only they had spent that money on actually making the OS better. Imagine that.
  - shawnz 8y ago
    > If only they had spent that money on actually making the OS better. Imagine that. What do you think they were trying to do? Apps are what make an OS good. Even if they caused 10,000 trash apps to be created and only 100 good ones, that's still 100 more good apps than they had before.
    - ktjfi 8y ago
      Not having a new toolkit every version would've been good. Allowing users of WP 7.* to update to 8, good too. Allowing all users of 8.1 to update to 10. Also their own apps were poor. I remember Skype for WP 8 was absolutely unusable. MS is composed of many teams and many of them clearly didn't give a shit about WP.

Animats 8y ago

What was Microsoft's cut before?

ductionist 8y ago
30% on one-off purchases of apps and IAPs, and 15% of subscriptions.

tanilama 8y ago

It is not surprising that in terms of develop engagement, Microsoft is at a huge disadvantage. They need some differentiation to attract developers.

ductionist 8y ago
I think that's part of it. It's also a more open platform, so they have to compete with, say, Stripe or Digital River etc. on their commission percentages to get the big Windows software titles on board.

nerdywordy 8y ago

I'd be interested to take the pulse of HN: When you are looking for a new Windows app, does opening up the store even cross your mind? I nearly always go to a web search + download first. Or if it's something dev-centric I look at scoop or chocolatey. The Windows Store is far, far behind in my mindshare. There are a few glimmers of hope though. Python has begun to distribute via the store which is cool. And the Linux distros available are helpful in some edge cases or for a quick dev environment.

hateful 8y ago
My issues with the store apps are that most of them act like "apps" and not like "programs/applications". For example, they close on their own with no warning. I tried to use the store version of the Pandora app, but it would be closed when I left it paused for too long. Same with Facebook's Messenger. I don't want that. I want to be able to control when I open and close a program.
- MentallyRetired 8y ago
  That doesn't happen to me with the messenger app... My biggest issue is the amount of unofficial apps that look official. It's a trust issue. If I go to the website I at least know that I'm getting legit software.
- fartcannon 8y ago
  If you want to be in control, Windows is the wrong platform for you.
pjmlp 8y ago
Yes, for example I am using Adobe XD and Paint.NET installed from the store. I also have a couple of other games and utility apps. Having the sandbox around is really nice from my user point of view. Then as Windows/Web dev, I do like the rebooted version of COM as well.
gpm 8y ago
I have - once opened up the app store to search for things on windows. It was after searching the web - but I barely use windows so the fact that I did at all is pretty remarkable really. I found things closer to what I was looking for than I did on the web too, but still came to the conclusion that what I was looking for doesn't exist (a good non-mobile app for marking up pdf's with a stylus - the closest I've found is Microsoft Edge of all things).

arkitaip 8y ago

This is an amazing deal for Win devs and one of many needed efforts if MS intends for the Microsoft Store to remain the number one platform for software downloads on Windows. Currently I'm seeing much more dev excitement for platforms like Electron where you can slap a wrapper around your existing web tech but damn would I love to see a renaissance for native Windows apps. I feel like Microsoft botched native Windows dev by having many and competing eco systems, some which feel incredibly outdated. It says a lot when even they prefer Electron for stuff like Visual Studio Code.

burtonator 8y ago

That's cool... assuming you can get in: https://getpolarized.io/2019/02/28/dear-app-stores-dont-block-apps-lead-with-the-carrot.html https://getpolarized.io/2019/02/28/dear-app-stores-dont-bloc... I found out that our app was crushed after 2 weeks of development. Basically, they won't let us in because we use Electron. Electron is developed in part (primarily) due to Github which they now own. TWO WEEKS I spent porting to the MS App Store only to have them just crush us ... It's great that I can make 95% of zero... But seriously. If anyone from Microsoft is listening - please unblock us ;) I'm considering submitting this as a PWA but it's missing a lot of features as a PWA.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
jpobst 8y ago
Seems like there might be more to it than that, since Slack is written in Electron and is in the Windows Store.
- opencl 8y ago
  There is something more to it: Slack is really popular and MS really wanted it on the store so they let them ignore the rule.
  - WorldMaker 8y ago
    Slack isn't the only Electron app in the MS Store. There's an entire guide on building Electron apps for the Store: https://electronjs.org/docs/tutorial/windows-store-guide https://electronjs.org/docs/tutorial/windows-store-guide Microsoft devs have even contributed to the tool mentioned in that article (and Microsoft is listed in the MIT license copyright statement): https://github.com/felixrieseberg/electron-windows-store https://github.com/felixrieseberg/electron-windows-store
  - burtonator 8y ago
    The "more to it" is covered in the article. They don't want things 'browsing the web' without you being forced to use MS Edge.

rchaud 8y ago

I can understand Microsoft having an app store when Windows Phone and Windows RT were still around, but now Windows is all x86, so people aren't even installing desktop apps anymore outside of games and work-specific apps (say, R), that wouldn't appear on the app store anyway. What's the most popular app on Windows Store anyway? I use Windows 10 every day and I've never noticed anything outside of Bejeweled, Candy Crush and other "mobile" type games.

WorldMaker 8y ago
A lot of classic x86 Win32 apps are in the Store these days, too. It is a safer way to buy and install such things. (Photoshop, iTunes, Office, etc.) Windows is continuing to expand to ARM even without phones right now. The HoloLens 2 is reported to be built around a Qualcomm Snapdragon. Windows 10 ARM tablets/netbooks are a product again, in trying to compete with Chrome OS, and it isn't a repeat of the Windows "RT" tablets because Windows 10 on ARM now supports x86 emulation and a lot of classic 32-bit Win32 applications. Just because you currently don't have a use for the Store doesn't mean that no one has a use for the Store. It's nice finally having a proper central app installer/updater without every application developer installing their own baroque updater and running it on every Windows startup. Getting rid of the Apple Updater alone by installing iTunes from the Windows Store is such a relief.

airstrike 8y ago

I'm surprised it isn't 100% – it should have been so from the outset. It's not like Microsoft really needs the revenue from the half-dozen apps available in their store right now. What they need is momentum. If I were in charge of making this decision I would pull the levers on every incentive I can give developers, cause God knows most people don't even remember the MS Store exists...

rubbingalcohol 8y ago
Compared to the massive cut Apple takes on their app stores Microsoft's revenue split seems pretty generous. I downvoted your comment because you aren't being intellectually honest to suggest it makes sense for them to provide payment processing, update management and DRM for free to app developers when at the very least they'd be losing big on the credit card processing side. So your comment reads as an elitist jab against Microsoft and not actual constructive criticism.
- airstrike 8y ago
  I am being intellectually honest. Users make the platform. Microsoft should recognize they are dead last in this race and bite the bullet to provide developers with a clear incentive to develop for the MS store. Apple takes the massive cut they do in their app store because developers can't really afford not to pay for that level of access to users. One day when (IF!) Microsoft's store becomes relevant like that, they can think about what share they're entitled to Finally, but also importantly, I don't know where in God's green world you got "elitism" from... which is pretty rich coming from someone calling my comment intellectually dishonest and "not actual constructive criticism".
- drewmol 8y ago
  I read the comment as a suggestion to temporarily subsidise the cost of providing payment processing, update management and DRM for free to app developers in exchange for momentum/traction which I find intellectualy honest criticism of MS play. In reality this revenue sharing strategy may have evolved from temporarily subsidise into reduce our margins and landed on the 15/5 pc royalty described in this announcement.

pjc50 8y ago

They don't quite require that you log into your desktop with an online account to use the store, but the route around this is non-obvious.

speeq 8y ago

Nice move! I hope that Google & Apple will reduce their 30% tax someday..

ehsankia 8y ago
I think this system would work well for game platforms too, such as Steam. A big point of contention for Steam is, how much the platform does for advertising your game. By having two separate taxes depending on how the game was found, you can have the best of both worlds. If you do your own brand building and advertising, then those sales get a better cut, while the platform can also get their cut for the advertising they do. This also aligns the incentives on what the platforms advertises, to some extent.
- themacguffinman 8y ago
  Steam already relinquishes their cut if the game is bought via a third party retailer. It costs nothing to generate or activate Steam keys outside the Steam store.
mrjesus 8y ago
30% take is pretty standard across a lot of industries when dealing with affiliate arrangements.

muststopmyths 8y ago

Microsoft is like a competitor in a Three-legged race (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-legged_race https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-legged_race) except both runners are running in opposite directions. You have one side that's actively working to make Windows obsolete and another that's flailing about trying to make it relevant somehow. I'm a bitter ex-Windows Phone user, so my perspective could be colored.

titanix2 8y ago
I was a WP7&8 user as well as developer and yes the whole story left me a bitter taste, especially at the end. I had fun getting phones for free, participating at MS hackhatons, making friends and of course learning to develop mobile apps but it seems every decisions by MS during after Mango have been against the consumer. Also at the time the store took 30% as well...

bdz 8y ago

>The new fee structure excludes all games and any purchases on Xbox consoles. Interesting considering the rise of Epic Store

z3t4 8y ago

I tried adding a web app to the store. Its extremely complicated compared to adding a hosted web app to chrome, where you just need an app manifest. For the windows store you need a bunch of xml files and it seems you must use their IDE. I want to build the package manually via command line so I can understand each step and then automate it.

nbevans 8y ago

This is a smart move that will drive more traffic to the Windows Store. They should have done this ages ago!

nickpp 8y ago

Desperation move. Microsoft is probably looking at its internal Store numbers and realizing it is a failure. I guess this is the final attempt. We'll see if it works.

nickflood 8y ago
They were talking about this change in 2017, and actually said it will come in 2018,so they kind of actually took too long to implement this. That said, I'd say the Store is not breaking any records. It looks like their reaction to that is to allow other stores on Windows while taking a step back and concentrating on being a good platform.

bitL 8y ago

Will this kill Steam? I suspect that's their main adversary as in mobile space they are non-existing, yet they can't dominate gaming space on PC.

chipperyman573 8y ago
Maybe, but from a user perspective steam is incredible. They were the first major game distributor to introduce a 2 week no-questions-asked refund period, in-home streaming works amazingly (even shooting games work at an acceptable level), their DRM isn't egregious (for example, charging back only revokes the licences that were charged back on, it doesn't close your entire account like on Xbox), and the updates Valve releases for the client are consistently good. The only problem I can remember them having is their entire lack of support, and apparently they have great support now. Unless people stop offering games on Steam, I don't plan to buy them anywhere else.
- bitL 8y ago
  It's not about buyers, but publishers. If a publisher gets 95% of revenue by being exclusively marketed by MS, versus 70% on Steam, they might team up with MS instead. Surely if MS dominates the space after some time, they increase fee, but nobody thinks more than a quarter-two ahead in gaming industry.
  - chipperyman573 8y ago
    I think in most cases you're correct, but store exclusives are somewhat common right now, and users tend to hate it (google "metro exodus controversy" and you'll see what I mean - and that wasn't even exclusive to one store, you just got a discount for buying it from Epic). That said, I don't have access to any data about sales - it's possible that just as many people buy it regardless of what store it's sold on. But I would suspect that is unlikely given how easy it is to pirate something and gamers' tendencies to believe they're owed a game.
muststopmyths 8y ago
Games are still 30%, so no. Apparently Microsoft believes that there is demand for a Windows Store and its apps, but games on the Windows Store are so successful that they don't need the cut. I would not have thought that possible, but I don't have access to Microsoft's business metrics.

duado 8y ago

The Microsoft App Store is a complete graveyard so it hardly matters what they do or don’t do with it.

m-p-3 8y ago

If only they did this while Windows Phone was still a thing, maybe (and a big MAYBE) it would have fared better in terms of developer engagement compared to iOS and Android.