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I'm inclined to agree with you. But I do think Teslas are different from cars of yesteryear in a few important ways: 1. They have massive 375 volt batteries th

I'm inclined to agree with you. But I do think Teslas are different from cars of yesteryear in a few important ways: 1. They have massive 375 volt batteries that could absolutely kill you if you're a little bit careless. 2. They have that "autopilot" mode. And that feature receives OTA updates from Tesla. I could see improper service causing problems with autopilot that would put other people (drivers and pedestrians) at risk. Maybe a solution is to separate some of the software features of a car (like autopilot) from the mechanical aspects. If you repair your car yourself, maybe losing out on autopilot and the like is a fair deal.

jhallenworld 8y ago
So on the 375V battery: the car already should be designed so that Tesla mechanics can work on it. It already needs to be safe to work on, or their own employees are going to sue them. Anyway, so at the very least connectors and modules with high voltage have to be designed so that the high voltage is not exposed. On autopilot mode: if it doesn't have a self test of the sensors it depends on, there is a big problem already. Actually conventional cars have electric power steering which you could argue has similar risks. There are more dangerous consumer goods. For example, microwave ovens have 3000 V power supplies at significant current: this is the voltage level used for executions. One mistake and you're dead.
linuxftw 8y ago
> 1. They have massive 375 volt batteries that could absolutely kill you if you're a little bit careless. Homes have electricity. It can easily kill you if you're careless. > 2. They have that "autopilot" mode. And that feature receives OTA updates from Tesla. I could see improper service causing problems with autopilot that would put other people (drivers and pedestrians) at risk. Then the autopilot system is inadequate. Not tightening your lug nuts could cause your tire to come off at highway speeds. What's you're point?
- grecy 8y ago
  > Homes have electricity. It can easily kill you if you're careless Unless you're playing on the input side of the meter-box, it's extremely unlikely you'll be killed in any kind of modern building with a mandated-by-law earth leakage device.
  - geerlingguy 8y ago
    Open up your circuit breaker box and touch the bus bar... or touch a live 30A circuit, and I think you'd disprove that one. Not saying I agree or disagree with the line of reasoning here, but there is plenty of current even in a North American 2-phase house's wiring to kill someone pretty quickly, no matter how well grounded the system is.
    - korethr 8y ago
      Small nitpick. North-American domestic power isn't 2-phase. It's 1 phase, center-tapped.
  - pwg 8y ago
    Those "mandated-by-law earth leakage device[s]" are only mandated for those circuits where you might most easily electrocute yourself, locations where water is present (bathrooms and kitchens), in basements with concrete floors, and exterior receptacles. The rest of the circuits are not mandated to have GFCI (the correct acronym for those "earth leakage device[s]") interrupters, and so those circuits /could/ kill you if you were not careful. Yes, it becomes marginally more difficult without easy access to water or a concrete floor, but is still quite possible.
    - grecy 8y ago
      In Australia they're law for the entire house, have been for decades.
      - pwg 8y ago
        Ah, then Australia is one up on the USA in that respect, where they are only required for the areas I listed, and even then the requirement is only for new construction or renovations.
- kbenson 8y ago
  > What's you're point? I'm pretty sure the point is that designing software to run in specific conditions is different than designing software capable of running in all conditions. This isn't just about the driver, it's about other people on the road and pedestrians. Just because the autopilot is sufficient to drive the car under the constraints the car ships with doesn't mean it's sufficient if the motors are putting out significantly more or less power, and its ability to detect this if it exists is somehow compromised. Tightening your lug nuts is fairly straightforward and easy. Verifying physical functionality of an AI driving system is not. The only safe way to react if it can detect the system is not as it should be is to disable itself and require manual driving. It should do this in the case of standard components operating outside of acceptable specifications as well.
  - jayar95 8y ago
    Honestly, autopilot software should have checks and balances already in place to prevent use if the system is compromised. Regardless if it was compromised by human hands or general use / wear & tear
    - linuxftw 8y ago
      My sentiments exactly.
  - rootusrootus 8y ago
    Tesla is hardly the only company that makes a car with lane following and adaptive cruise control. How do the other manufacturers deal with this issue?

jhallenworld 8y ago

So on the 375V battery: the car already should be designed so that Tesla mechanics can work on it. It already needs to be safe to work on, or their own employees are going to sue them. Anyway, so at the very least connectors and modules with high voltage have to be designed so that the high voltage is not exposed. On autopilot mode: if it doesn't have a self test of the sensors it depends on, there is a big problem already. Actually conventional cars have electric power steering which you could argue has similar risks. There are more dangerous consumer goods. For example, microwave ovens have 3000 V power supplies at significant current: this is the voltage level used for executions. One mistake and you're dead.

linuxftw 8y ago

> 1. They have massive 375 volt batteries that could absolutely kill you if you're a little bit careless. Homes have electricity. It can easily kill you if you're careless. > 2. They have that "autopilot" mode. And that feature receives OTA updates from Tesla. I could see improper service causing problems with autopilot that would put other people (drivers and pedestrians) at risk. Then the autopilot system is inadequate. Not tightening your lug nuts could cause your tire to come off at highway speeds. What's you're point?

grecy 8y ago
> Homes have electricity. It can easily kill you if you're careless Unless you're playing on the input side of the meter-box, it's extremely unlikely you'll be killed in any kind of modern building with a mandated-by-law earth leakage device.
- geerlingguy 8y ago
  Open up your circuit breaker box and touch the bus bar... or touch a live 30A circuit, and I think you'd disprove that one. Not saying I agree or disagree with the line of reasoning here, but there is plenty of current even in a North American 2-phase house's wiring to kill someone pretty quickly, no matter how well grounded the system is.
  - korethr 8y ago
    Small nitpick. North-American domestic power isn't 2-phase. It's 1 phase, center-tapped.
- pwg 8y ago
  Those "mandated-by-law earth leakage device[s]" are only mandated for those circuits where you might most easily electrocute yourself, locations where water is present (bathrooms and kitchens), in basements with concrete floors, and exterior receptacles. The rest of the circuits are not mandated to have GFCI (the correct acronym for those "earth leakage device[s]") interrupters, and so those circuits /could/ kill you if you were not careful. Yes, it becomes marginally more difficult without easy access to water or a concrete floor, but is still quite possible.
  - grecy 8y ago
    In Australia they're law for the entire house, have been for decades.
    - pwg 8y ago
      Ah, then Australia is one up on the USA in that respect, where they are only required for the areas I listed, and even then the requirement is only for new construction or renovations.
kbenson 8y ago
> What's you're point? I'm pretty sure the point is that designing software to run in specific conditions is different than designing software capable of running in all conditions. This isn't just about the driver, it's about other people on the road and pedestrians. Just because the autopilot is sufficient to drive the car under the constraints the car ships with doesn't mean it's sufficient if the motors are putting out significantly more or less power, and its ability to detect this if it exists is somehow compromised. Tightening your lug nuts is fairly straightforward and easy. Verifying physical functionality of an AI driving system is not. The only safe way to react if it can detect the system is not as it should be is to disable itself and require manual driving. It should do this in the case of standard components operating outside of acceptable specifications as well.
- jayar95 8y ago
  Honestly, autopilot software should have checks and balances already in place to prevent use if the system is compromised. Regardless if it was compromised by human hands or general use / wear & tear
  - linuxftw 8y ago
    My sentiments exactly.
- rootusrootus 8y ago
  Tesla is hardly the only company that makes a car with lane following and adaptive cruise control. How do the other manufacturers deal with this issue?