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Part of the problem here is the entire smartphone and app culture of walled gardens. No native desktop applications try to pull this shit excepting the webapp a

Part of the problem here is the entire smartphone and app culture of walled gardens. No native desktop applications try to pull this shit excepting the webapp as 'native' electron-based fakes.

scrollaway 8y ago
You are mistaken, native apps do pull and have been pulling this shit for a long time. It just so happens that this electron you hate so much has good debug tooling and more readable source code than your average native app, so it's more visible.
- superkuh 8y ago
  Electron 'apps' do not have readable source. More often than not they pull down their source dynamically at run time. So it can and often does, change every time you run the program.
  - scrollaway 8y ago
    What of it? It's still very readable. Open an inspector once in a while. Even the most minified and obfuscated JavaScript pales in comparison to most non-C# native apps, and that's without accounting for the amount of debug tooling usually left over in there. It sounds to me, and other commenters, that you simply are misremembering the past and ignoring current trends that have nothing to do with electron.
  - thosakwe 8y ago
    That’s definitely something that happens in non-Electron apps, though. Not to mention the fact that Electron apps just bundle an archive containing the app sources (minified or not), whereas you’re not necessarily going to be able to read the source code of a C++ app running on your system.
criddell 8y ago
The walled garden could also be part of the solution. Apple could change their policy and ban this behavior.
badfrog 8y ago
Why would this be more likely to happen in the walled garden? The app stores actually have some sort of quality control and API-use restrictions. Desktop applications that you get outside of app stores can do literally anything, and you have no idea what's going on with them.
- superkuh 8y ago
  Because phones (as most people use them) only have walled gardens and phones have a terrible culture of exploitation of their users through rent seeking models, microtransactions, and literally selling the user themselves. Native applications, that is, applications, have a long history of being able to do things without constant connections to the internet or any connection at all.
  - badfrog 8y ago
    So, the problem is phones and not app stores?
    - superkuh 8y ago
      Yes. I should not have mentioned the secondary issue of app stores. It just confused things. But it is a property of smart phones that is bad.
codetrotter 8y ago
That’s not how I remember it. I remember that malware was rampant on Windows back in the 90’s and early 00’s. And some of that malware probably did collect information on you. Either way, the point I am trying to make is that desktop software is not as benign as you are making it out to be. And even some of the desktop operating systems have been doing telemetry or advertising related things in the OS itself. Ubuntu. https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/ubuntu-spyware.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/ubuntu-spyware.en.html Windows 7 and 8.1 telemetry. https://mspoweruser.com/microsoft-makes-telemetry-updates-for-windows-7-and-8-1-critical-updates/ https://mspoweruser.com/microsoft-makes-telemetry-updates-fo... Windows 10 built-in advertising. https://www.howtogeek.com/269331/how-to-disable-all-of-windows-10s-built-in-advertising/ https://www.howtogeek.com/269331/how-to-disable-all-of-windo... I don’t get why or how people put up with this bullshit.
- badfrog 8y ago
  Yeah, I remember when all the free applications you downloaded came bundled with sketchy browser toolbars and "virtual assistants" that they installed without telling you. It wasn't good times back then.
  - dustindiamond 8y ago
    Bonzibuddy! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BonziBuddy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BonziBuddy
    - badfrog 8y ago
      That's it! I had forgotten the name.
- darkpuma 8y ago
  Back then it was widely recognized as malware, that wasn't a controversial classification. These days if you categorize such software as spyware/malware, you get a ton of pushback. It's become normalized. When did this happen? Obviously it was a gradual change, but when about was the inflection point? I'd estimate sometime around 2007.
ryandrake 8y ago
I’d argue that desktop applications are worse. Most Desktop operating systems out of the box don’t require the user’s consent in order to use peripheral devices and sensors, whereas at least mobile operating systems will ask the user first. I can download a random desktop application from the internet onto my Windows machine and, without notifying me, gaining root, or getting my permission, it can access my connected camera and microphone, access my personal documents anywhere in the file system my user has access to, access the network, list all the other network connections I currently have open, activate my printer, read my address book, and list all the software I have on my computer. And if I don’t affirmatively deny it by setting up an outbound firewall, that desktop software can send that information anywhere it likes. Mobile has not solved all these consent problems but is farther along.

Part of the problem here is the entire smartphone and app culture of walled gardens. No native desktop applications try to pull this shit excepting the webapp as 'native' electron-based fakes.

scrollaway 8y ago

You are mistaken, native apps do pull and have been pulling this shit for a long time. It just so happens that this electron you hate so much has good debug tooling and more readable source code than your average native app, so it's more visible.

superkuh 8y ago
Electron 'apps' do not have readable source. More often than not they pull down their source dynamically at run time. So it can and often does, change every time you run the program.
- scrollaway 8y ago
  What of it? It's still very readable. Open an inspector once in a while. Even the most minified and obfuscated JavaScript pales in comparison to most non-C# native apps, and that's without accounting for the amount of debug tooling usually left over in there. It sounds to me, and other commenters, that you simply are misremembering the past and ignoring current trends that have nothing to do with electron.
- thosakwe 8y ago
  That’s definitely something that happens in non-Electron apps, though. Not to mention the fact that Electron apps just bundle an archive containing the app sources (minified or not), whereas you’re not necessarily going to be able to read the source code of a C++ app running on your system.

criddell 8y ago

The walled garden could also be part of the solution. Apple could change their policy and ban this behavior.

badfrog 8y ago

Why would this be more likely to happen in the walled garden? The app stores actually have some sort of quality control and API-use restrictions. Desktop applications that you get outside of app stores can do literally anything, and you have no idea what's going on with them.

superkuh 8y ago
Because phones (as most people use them) only have walled gardens and phones have a terrible culture of exploitation of their users through rent seeking models, microtransactions, and literally selling the user themselves. Native applications, that is, applications, have a long history of being able to do things without constant connections to the internet or any connection at all.
- badfrog 8y ago
  So, the problem is phones and not app stores?
  - superkuh 8y ago
    Yes. I should not have mentioned the secondary issue of app stores. It just confused things. But it is a property of smart phones that is bad.

codetrotter 8y ago

That’s not how I remember it. I remember that malware was rampant on Windows back in the 90’s and early 00’s. And some of that malware probably did collect information on you. Either way, the point I am trying to make is that desktop software is not as benign as you are making it out to be. And even some of the desktop operating systems have been doing telemetry or advertising related things in the OS itself. Ubuntu. https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/ubuntu-spyware.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/ubuntu-spyware.en.html Windows 7 and 8.1 telemetry. https://mspoweruser.com/microsoft-makes-telemetry-updates-for-windows-7-and-8-1-critical-updates/ https://mspoweruser.com/microsoft-makes-telemetry-updates-fo... Windows 10 built-in advertising. https://www.howtogeek.com/269331/how-to-disable-all-of-windows-10s-built-in-advertising/ https://www.howtogeek.com/269331/how-to-disable-all-of-windo... I don’t get why or how people put up with this bullshit.

badfrog 8y ago
Yeah, I remember when all the free applications you downloaded came bundled with sketchy browser toolbars and "virtual assistants" that they installed without telling you. It wasn't good times back then.
- dustindiamond 8y ago
  Bonzibuddy! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BonziBuddy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BonziBuddy
  - badfrog 8y ago
    That's it! I had forgotten the name.
darkpuma 8y ago
Back then it was widely recognized as malware, that wasn't a controversial classification. These days if you categorize such software as spyware/malware, you get a ton of pushback. It's become normalized. When did this happen? Obviously it was a gradual change, but when about was the inflection point? I'd estimate sometime around 2007.

ryandrake 8y ago

I’d argue that desktop applications are worse. Most Desktop operating systems out of the box don’t require the user’s consent in order to use peripheral devices and sensors, whereas at least mobile operating systems will ask the user first. I can download a random desktop application from the internet onto my Windows machine and, without notifying me, gaining root, or getting my permission, it can access my connected camera and microphone, access my personal documents anywhere in the file system my user has access to, access the network, list all the other network connections I currently have open, activate my printer, read my address book, and list all the software I have on my computer. And if I don’t affirmatively deny it by setting up an outbound firewall, that desktop software can send that information anywhere it likes. Mobile has not solved all these consent problems but is farther along.