4 ms·

Oh wow, I had no idea they scan you after re-entering the country. I'm flying to Chicago O'Hare from London Gatwick on Dec 2, and now I'm concerned about this.

by acabal 16y ago

Oh wow, I had no idea they scan you after re-entering the country. I'm flying to Chicago O'Hare from London Gatwick on Dec 2, and now I'm concerned about this. Does anyone know precisely what my rights are as a US citizen upon re-entering the country to avoid all of this ridiculousness? I know that Customs has some Constitutional power for searches and so on (and there's that insane 100-mile "border" where people can be stopped and searched), but where does the TSA fit into all of this? If asked to do a backscatter OR patdown once I'm on US soil and leaving the airport, is it within my rights to refuse both? It sounds like the guy in the post wasn't claiming his rights, only threatening to call it "assault" if they brushed his genitals. Or have I got it wrong? Edit: I'm extremely curious about this now. Per the wiki article linked in the replies, it seems that x-ray and pat down searches are "unreasonable" without a warrant at a border (i.e. international airport). So I believe I could claim that going through these scanners again after landing on US soil and wanting to exit the airport would infringe on my rights. However, since the scenario is the same for entering a flight on US soil, wouldn't the backscatter/patdowns in those cases also infringe on our rights? Does anyone have any ideas on this? I don't want to give the TSA an inch when re-entering my own damn country.

swombat 16y ago
Your mileage may vary, but it sounds to me like he was claiming his constitutional rights... "Am I being detained? Am I free to go?" seems to be a key-phrase of people who know their rights when faced with police officers. That, and verbally not consenting to any search - your person is also protected by constitutional rights, afaik. (note: I'm not American, I may be wrong)
- acabal 16y ago
  I think that Customs may detain you at a border--they have more leeway in the Constitution for border searches iirc. That's what I'm confused about now, because with each new insane agency that gets created and each new law that alters and amends old law, it's hard for a non-lawyer to get a clear picture of exactly what is and what isn't a right. And if I have the free time upon landing and no flight to catch, I don't want to give TSA an inch. Edit: here's the Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception It says that "reasonable" searches, i.e. property searches, can be conducted without warrant by Customs officers at the border. "Unreasonable" searches like x-ray, pat-downs, and strip searches require a warrant. But is TSA allowed to do this as well, or only Customs agents?
  - jacquesm 16y ago
    The TSA is not customs.
    - stcredzero 16y ago
      Unfortunately, this is vulnerable to a bit of bureaucratic sleight of hand. I say we hold it against the politicians who aid and abet such shenanigans.
- dpatru 16y ago
  The Fourth Amendment to the Constitution restricts government's ability to seizure people. A person is seized when a reasonable person in that situation would feel that they are not free to leave. Normally, seizure requires a warrant, but there are exceptions, all of which I think require that the seizing officer have probable cause that a crime has been committed and the person who committed the crime is the one being seized. By asking the police officer if he was free to go, the traveler was triggering this kind of analysis in the officer's head. The officer knows that he cannot seize without probable cause. He can probably temporarily detain the traveler while the TSA investigate the situation, but ultimately, if there's no probable cause, the traveler must be allowed to leave.
karzeem 16y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception You're required to present proof of citizenship and allow a "routine" search of your belongings for contraband. A "non-routine" search requires them to have a reasonable suspicion about you specifically. My own reading is that a backscatter scan or s search of your body would count as non-routine, but of course a court may disagree.
tzs 16y ago
On the Reddit discussion of this, someone pointed out that at the particular airport involved when you leave Customs you have to pass through the secure area to exit the airport. There's no exit path from customs that bypasses going through the secure area. That may be the reason people entering the country are checked.
srveit 16y ago
Here is an article and HN discussion thread that was posted two months ago that describes how one man retained his rights upon re-entering the US: http://nomadlaw.com/2010/04/i-am-detained-by-feds-for-not-answering-questions/ http://nomadlaw.com/2010/04/i-am-detained-by-feds-for-not-an... http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1681721 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1681721

by acabal 16y ago

swombat 16y ago

Your mileage may vary, but it sounds to me like he was claiming his constitutional rights... "Am I being detained? Am I free to go?" seems to be a key-phrase of people who know their rights when faced with police officers. That, and verbally not consenting to any search - your person is also protected by constitutional rights, afaik. (note: I'm not American, I may be wrong)

acabal 16y ago
I think that Customs may detain you at a border--they have more leeway in the Constitution for border searches iirc. That's what I'm confused about now, because with each new insane agency that gets created and each new law that alters and amends old law, it's hard for a non-lawyer to get a clear picture of exactly what is and what isn't a right. And if I have the free time upon landing and no flight to catch, I don't want to give TSA an inch. Edit: here's the Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception It says that "reasonable" searches, i.e. property searches, can be conducted without warrant by Customs officers at the border. "Unreasonable" searches like x-ray, pat-downs, and strip searches require a warrant. But is TSA allowed to do this as well, or only Customs agents?
- jacquesm 16y ago
  The TSA is not customs.
  - stcredzero 16y ago
    Unfortunately, this is vulnerable to a bit of bureaucratic sleight of hand. I say we hold it against the politicians who aid and abet such shenanigans.
dpatru 16y ago
The Fourth Amendment to the Constitution restricts government's ability to seizure people. A person is seized when a reasonable person in that situation would feel that they are not free to leave. Normally, seizure requires a warrant, but there are exceptions, all of which I think require that the seizing officer have probable cause that a crime has been committed and the person who committed the crime is the one being seized. By asking the police officer if he was free to go, the traveler was triggering this kind of analysis in the officer's head. The officer knows that he cannot seize without probable cause. He can probably temporarily detain the traveler while the TSA investigate the situation, but ultimately, if there's no probable cause, the traveler must be allowed to leave.

karzeem 16y ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception You're required to present proof of citizenship and allow a "routine" search of your belongings for contraband. A "non-routine" search requires them to have a reasonable suspicion about you specifically. My own reading is that a backscatter scan or s search of your body would count as non-routine, but of course a court may disagree.

tzs 16y ago

On the Reddit discussion of this, someone pointed out that at the particular airport involved when you leave Customs you have to pass through the secure area to exit the airport. There's no exit path from customs that bypasses going through the secure area. That may be the reason people entering the country are checked.

srveit 16y ago

Here is an article and HN discussion thread that was posted two months ago that describes how one man retained his rights upon re-entering the US: http://nomadlaw.com/2010/04/i-am-detained-by-feds-for-not-answering-questions/ http://nomadlaw.com/2010/04/i-am-detained-by-feds-for-not-an... http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1681721 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1681721