7 ms·

Worth a read because it is one the most condescending computing books I have ever read. While reading I got the impression that I read the text of a really imma

Worth a read because it is one the most condescending computing books I have ever read. While reading I got the impression that I read the text of a really immature fanboy in a web forum of the 2000s. I hope the author has matured by now. Seriously, don't buy this book.

black-tea 8y ago
I thought it was great, but I know it's not a book for snowflakes. When I hear someone say "this is right" or "this is wrong", I am able to effortlessly interpret this as "I believe this is right/wrong". It's just being efficient with language. I don't need people to add extra words for fear of offending me. Maybe the author was immature. That's great. Let it remind you what it's like to be young and so excited about something that you'd write a book about it. This book is great.
- damsdu78 8y ago
  Do you think it is useful for a Lisp noob?
  - dan-robertson 8y ago
    I think it’s a great second book. For a first I’ve always recommended Practical Common Lisp. I don’t know if that recommendation is still up to date.
    - TurboHaskal 8y ago
      I'd simply give newbies this link http://stevelosh.com/blog/2018/08/a-road-to-common-lisp/ http://stevelosh.com/blog/2018/08/a-road-to-common-lisp/
      - zeveb 8y ago
        Yeah, that's an excellent — and modern — guide.
    - js8 8y ago
      I would recommend it to a Lisp enthusiast as a third after On Lisp. That's how I read it, anyway. Many things in LOL are quite opinionated. I don't think it's a distillation of knowledge (like On Lisp), but rather an exploration how far you can take some things (macros).
      - qohen 8y ago
        As a reminder, Paul Graham's On Lisp is freely downloadable, in PDF or PostScript via links on this page at PaulGraham.com: http://www.paulgraham.com/onlisptext.html http://www.paulgraham.com/onlisptext.html
  - fiddlerwoaroof 8y ago
    This book is sort of a trap because some of the macros it defines make assumptions that are not guaranteed by the language specification: every once in a while, you’ll find people on IRC or similar asking for help with some of the examples from this book. Also, IMO, the defmacro/g macro defined in this book would have been better defined as a reader macro than as a codewalking macro.
    - lispm 8y ago
      > make assumptions that are not guaranteed by the language specification I haven't read it, I have to confess. It would be useful if those assumptions were explicitly mentioned and explained in the book. Some of the advanced macro stuff is easily outside of the standard and can be still useful, which for example lacks some of the environment features described in CLtL2.
    - weavie 8y ago
      If I recall somewhere around SBCL 1.2 they changed the way the backquote worked (totally fine for them to do that as it wasn't specified in the standard..) which broke the Let over Lambda macro. I think CCL still works. The code here should fix the problems : https://github.com/thephoeron/let-over-lambda https://github.com/thephoeron/let-over-lambda Note, it's been a while since I looked at it so I could have some of the details wrong. The book is still well worth reading to help you understand the possibilities with a programmable programming language, but just bear in mind the various caveats..
  - TurboHaskal 8y ago
    Definitely not. The book expands on pg's books and a prior read is recommended.
  - pepper_sauce 8y ago
    Read On Lisp before Let Over Lambda, but after a beginner book like Practical Common Lisp.
  - black-tea 8y ago
    No, it's not. Others have suggested other great books for beginners, like Practical Common Lisp. You'll get the most from Let Over Lambda after you've already got a bit of experience with Lisp.
- varjag 8y ago
  I'm a long time Lisper myself but also couldn't get through this book. Maybe it's because am a snowflake, but my eyes rolled so often I was scared they'll get stuck in the up position.
  - P_I_Staker 8y ago
    This is a big problem I have with books in general. Inevitably, the author drones on about some bullshit, and the book gets thrown across the room, never to be picked up again.
- coldtea 8y ago
  >I thought it was great, but I know it's not a book for snowflakes. When I hear someone say "this is right" or "this is wrong", I am able to effortlessly interpret this as "I believe this is right/wrong". It's just being efficient with language. Or, as we used to call it: "It's all about having had a few conversations with actual people in the actual world".
- jwhite 8y ago
  I agree. Something that might be worth noting: two minutes of googling didn't turn up the author's age, but I recall seeing this photo on his website when I bought it some time after it was published in 2008: https://hcsw.org/contact.php https://hcsw.org/contact.php Here's a more up-to-date photo: https://hoytech.com/about https://hoytech.com/about It's possible he was quite young when it was published. If that's the case, then I think the book is all the more a towering achievement. It's abrasive, and it smells a bit of 2000s forum fanboy discussions, but mature people should be able to read past the more opinionated parts and find the gems in the technical treatment.
mjaniczek 8y ago
https://letoverlambda.com/index.cl/guest/chap6.html https://letoverlambda.com/index.cl/guest/chap6.html Yeah, the sixth chapter sure bashes on Scheme a lot. :/
- pepper_sauce 8y ago
  Good heavens! Not Scheme!
  - gekkonier 8y ago
    Hey! Why so angry! :-)
- jhbadger 8y ago
  I always wonder if Common Lispers who bash Scheme know that Guy Steele (who also is the chairman of the Common Lisp standards committee) was the co-creator of Scheme.
  - mruts 8y ago
    Well he also designed Java, so...
    - lispm 8y ago
      That's new. Where did you get that information from?
  - eadmund 8y ago
    I can't speak for others, but I know that, and I think that it is consistent, rather than inconsistent, with my points 1) that Scheme is fine as an academic language and 2) Common Lisp is preferable for real programs. Scheme's simplicity is awesome if you're implementing it; it's awesome if you're learning it; it's not so awesome if you're trying to actually use it. As LoL notes, it's dumb to throw away information in conditionals. As LoL also notes, hygienic macros are toys and DEFMACRO is generally what you really want. I'll add that having only a single namespace for variables, classes, functions, types, packages & everything else means that you end up having to be extremely verbose: foo, fooClass, fooFunc, fooType, fooPackage. call/cc is incredibly cool & powerful, but also really hurts efficiency in a way that I don't think is acceptable in a production system (it's fine, of course, in a teaching language, because the experience of understanding it is really useful). dynamic-wind is broken compared to UNWIND-PROTECT. And on & on & on. Steele also wrote the Java spec, and he wasn't wrong when he said 'We were not out to win over the Lisp programmers; we were after the C++ programmers. We managed to drag a lot of them about halfway to Lisp,' but I don't think in 2019 anyone thinks that his involvement with Java means it is anywhere near as good, powerful or acceptable a language as Lisp.
coldtea 8y ago
Or, you know, the author knows his stuff and is deservedly condescending in an industry of trends and cargo cults. As in arts and politics, some curmudgeons are needed in every field, if not for anything else, to show that there's another way than the mainstream. (They don't have to be perfectly right either -- it's having a strong perspective that counts, nobody is 100% right anyway).
- varjag 8y ago
  There are numerous great Lisp books by knowledgeable authors which have none of that attitude. Life is too short to read printouts of Usenet rants.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    Well, to each their own. For me life's too short to read authors walking on eggshells. Of course for a technical book it's the technical content that matters -- whether it's presented politely or not.
    - varjag 8y ago
      In which way for example Siebel's PCL is "walking on eggshells"? On Lisp? PAIP? Am I super obtuse and missing some very obvious and important point they are tiptoeing around? Even if one does really think it's important to convey they are presenting superior technology, it can be stated clearly and concisely without sounding corrosive.
- letoverkappa 8y ago
  "Deservedly condescending" is not an actual thing that exists in the world. The words you're looking for are "writes poorly."
  - coldtea 8y ago
    >"Deservedly condescending" is not an actual thing that exists in the world. There's absolutely no rational reason for it not to be a thing. "Politely condescending" might be a contradiction in terms, but some people just lend themselves to being treated condescendingly. Same thing with how some people might deserve a sarcastic response -- sarcasm is not that remote from condescension.

black-tea 8y ago

I thought it was great, but I know it's not a book for snowflakes. When I hear someone say "this is right" or "this is wrong", I am able to effortlessly interpret this as "I believe this is right/wrong". It's just being efficient with language. I don't need people to add extra words for fear of offending me. Maybe the author was immature. That's great. Let it remind you what it's like to be young and so excited about something that you'd write a book about it. This book is great.

damsdu78 8y ago
Do you think it is useful for a Lisp noob?
- dan-robertson 8y ago
  I think it’s a great second book. For a first I’ve always recommended Practical Common Lisp. I don’t know if that recommendation is still up to date.
  - TurboHaskal 8y ago
    I'd simply give newbies this link http://stevelosh.com/blog/2018/08/a-road-to-common-lisp/ http://stevelosh.com/blog/2018/08/a-road-to-common-lisp/
    - zeveb 8y ago
      Yeah, that's an excellent — and modern — guide.
  - js8 8y ago
    I would recommend it to a Lisp enthusiast as a third after On Lisp. That's how I read it, anyway. Many things in LOL are quite opinionated. I don't think it's a distillation of knowledge (like On Lisp), but rather an exploration how far you can take some things (macros).
    - qohen 8y ago
      As a reminder, Paul Graham's On Lisp is freely downloadable, in PDF or PostScript via links on this page at PaulGraham.com: http://www.paulgraham.com/onlisptext.html http://www.paulgraham.com/onlisptext.html
- fiddlerwoaroof 8y ago
  This book is sort of a trap because some of the macros it defines make assumptions that are not guaranteed by the language specification: every once in a while, you’ll find people on IRC or similar asking for help with some of the examples from this book. Also, IMO, the defmacro/g macro defined in this book would have been better defined as a reader macro than as a codewalking macro.
  - lispm 8y ago
    > make assumptions that are not guaranteed by the language specification I haven't read it, I have to confess. It would be useful if those assumptions were explicitly mentioned and explained in the book. Some of the advanced macro stuff is easily outside of the standard and can be still useful, which for example lacks some of the environment features described in CLtL2.
  - weavie 8y ago
    If I recall somewhere around SBCL 1.2 they changed the way the backquote worked (totally fine for them to do that as it wasn't specified in the standard..) which broke the Let over Lambda macro. I think CCL still works. The code here should fix the problems : https://github.com/thephoeron/let-over-lambda https://github.com/thephoeron/let-over-lambda Note, it's been a while since I looked at it so I could have some of the details wrong. The book is still well worth reading to help you understand the possibilities with a programmable programming language, but just bear in mind the various caveats..
- TurboHaskal 8y ago
  Definitely not. The book expands on pg's books and a prior read is recommended.
- pepper_sauce 8y ago
  Read On Lisp before Let Over Lambda, but after a beginner book like Practical Common Lisp.
- black-tea 8y ago
  No, it's not. Others have suggested other great books for beginners, like Practical Common Lisp. You'll get the most from Let Over Lambda after you've already got a bit of experience with Lisp.
varjag 8y ago
I'm a long time Lisper myself but also couldn't get through this book. Maybe it's because am a snowflake, but my eyes rolled so often I was scared they'll get stuck in the up position.
- P_I_Staker 8y ago
  This is a big problem I have with books in general. Inevitably, the author drones on about some bullshit, and the book gets thrown across the room, never to be picked up again.
coldtea 8y ago
>I thought it was great, but I know it's not a book for snowflakes. When I hear someone say "this is right" or "this is wrong", I am able to effortlessly interpret this as "I believe this is right/wrong". It's just being efficient with language. Or, as we used to call it: "It's all about having had a few conversations with actual people in the actual world".
jwhite 8y ago
I agree. Something that might be worth noting: two minutes of googling didn't turn up the author's age, but I recall seeing this photo on his website when I bought it some time after it was published in 2008: https://hcsw.org/contact.php https://hcsw.org/contact.php Here's a more up-to-date photo: https://hoytech.com/about https://hoytech.com/about It's possible he was quite young when it was published. If that's the case, then I think the book is all the more a towering achievement. It's abrasive, and it smells a bit of 2000s forum fanboy discussions, but mature people should be able to read past the more opinionated parts and find the gems in the technical treatment.

mjaniczek 8y ago

https://letoverlambda.com/index.cl/guest/chap6.html https://letoverlambda.com/index.cl/guest/chap6.html Yeah, the sixth chapter sure bashes on Scheme a lot. :/

pepper_sauce 8y ago
Good heavens! Not Scheme!
- gekkonier 8y ago
  Hey! Why so angry! :-)
jhbadger 8y ago
I always wonder if Common Lispers who bash Scheme know that Guy Steele (who also is the chairman of the Common Lisp standards committee) was the co-creator of Scheme.
- mruts 8y ago
  Well he also designed Java, so...
  - lispm 8y ago
    That's new. Where did you get that information from?
- eadmund 8y ago
  I can't speak for others, but I know that, and I think that it is consistent, rather than inconsistent, with my points 1) that Scheme is fine as an academic language and 2) Common Lisp is preferable for real programs. Scheme's simplicity is awesome if you're implementing it; it's awesome if you're learning it; it's not so awesome if you're trying to actually use it. As LoL notes, it's dumb to throw away information in conditionals. As LoL also notes, hygienic macros are toys and DEFMACRO is generally what you really want. I'll add that having only a single namespace for variables, classes, functions, types, packages & everything else means that you end up having to be extremely verbose: foo, fooClass, fooFunc, fooType, fooPackage. call/cc is incredibly cool & powerful, but also really hurts efficiency in a way that I don't think is acceptable in a production system (it's fine, of course, in a teaching language, because the experience of understanding it is really useful). dynamic-wind is broken compared to UNWIND-PROTECT. And on & on & on. Steele also wrote the Java spec, and he wasn't wrong when he said 'We were not out to win over the Lisp programmers; we were after the C++ programmers. We managed to drag a lot of them about halfway to Lisp,' but I don't think in 2019 anyone thinks that his involvement with Java means it is anywhere near as good, powerful or acceptable a language as Lisp.

coldtea 8y ago

Or, you know, the author knows his stuff and is deservedly condescending in an industry of trends and cargo cults. As in arts and politics, some curmudgeons are needed in every field, if not for anything else, to show that there's another way than the mainstream. (They don't have to be perfectly right either -- it's having a strong perspective that counts, nobody is 100% right anyway).

varjag 8y ago
There are numerous great Lisp books by knowledgeable authors which have none of that attitude. Life is too short to read printouts of Usenet rants.
- coldtea 8y ago
  Well, to each their own. For me life's too short to read authors walking on eggshells. Of course for a technical book it's the technical content that matters -- whether it's presented politely or not.
  - varjag 8y ago
    In which way for example Siebel's PCL is "walking on eggshells"? On Lisp? PAIP? Am I super obtuse and missing some very obvious and important point they are tiptoeing around? Even if one does really think it's important to convey they are presenting superior technology, it can be stated clearly and concisely without sounding corrosive.
letoverkappa 8y ago
"Deservedly condescending" is not an actual thing that exists in the world. The words you're looking for are "writes poorly."
- coldtea 8y ago
  >"Deservedly condescending" is not an actual thing that exists in the world. There's absolutely no rational reason for it not to be a thing. "Politely condescending" might be a contradiction in terms, but some people just lend themselves to being treated condescendingly. Same thing with how some people might deserve a sarcastic response -- sarcasm is not that remote from condescension.