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>There is nothing "toxic" about the internet except for the centralization of communication on a handful of corporate controlled social networks that have perve

>There is nothing "toxic" about the internet except for the centralization of communication on a handful of corporate controlled social networks that have perverse incentives to censor anything that might impact their advertising or other income. There are definitely other problems besides a centralized internet. Consider attacks by corporate and state level enemies in the form of astroturfing and fake news. Those issues existed outside of a centralized internet, and arguably can be addressed better by centralized access to information. Look at the great firewall of China: do you think the Russian disinformation campaign could succeed there to the extent it did in the west? Free access to the internet lowers the barrier for bad actors. Having said that, I obviously prefer the western model of internet access, but I'd like to state that it doesn't come without its own set of problems.

Shekelberg 8y ago
> Russian disinformation campaign If you're concerned about the pocket change Russia spent on US election ads, you must be apoplectic over the massive amount of US campaign donations and media ownership by Israeli citizens. I assume you are not just using Russia to delegitimize your political opposition, and are genuinely concerned about foreign interference in US politics, so what do you propose we do about the Jewish problem?
malvosenior 8y ago
"Russian disinformation campaign could succeed there to the extent it did in the west?" What proof do you have that the Russians had a successful disinformation campaign in the west? I've seen none.
- drhodes 8y ago
  people who have worked for russian troll farms have given interviews: https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/curious-case-russian-flash-mob-west-palm-beach-cheesecake-factory https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/curious-case-russian-flash...
  - malvosenior 8y ago
    There's nothing in that interview that suggests any of this was effective (if it even happened at all). Even Correct The Record (Hillary's massive social media astro turf team), couldn't turn the election around for her and it was orders of magnitude larger than what is claimed the Russian's did in this podcast. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correct_the_Record https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correct_the_Record The fact is, despite all the media whinging, it turns out it's incredibly difficult if not impossible to brainwash an entire nation of people into voting for someone they wouldn't normally vote for.
    - drhodes 8y ago
      You're black and white on this. The entire nation of people doesn't need to be brainwashed. The world is gray. The dynamics of the election was changed. Did Putin elect Trump? It's impossible to say. Did Putin help elect Trump? Yes.
      - JetSpiegel 8y ago
        Putin helped to elect Trump in the same way an ant riding an elephant remarks "Look at all the dust we are leaving behind". In the land of Citizens United and unlimited SuperPAC, the fake news factories barely register in the influence measurements. Now, having kompromat in both criminal terms and personal embarassement is another story, but that is a failing on the USA. The 'checks and balances' allowed a President compromised by a foreign power to last at least 2 years.
    - aksss 8y ago
      @drhodes, it's not impossible to say. https://www.vox.com/conversations/2017/1/27/14266228/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-fake-news-media-2016-election https://www.vox.com/conversations/2017/1/27/14266228/donald-... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/02/health/fake-news-conservative-liberal.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/02/health/fake-news-conserva... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/13/upshot/fake-news-and-bots-may-be-worrisome-but-their-political-power-is-overblown.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/13/upshot/fake-news-and-bots... At some point, an incredibly obstinate subset of the American population will need to realize that Hillary failed for very mundane reasons. At the end of the day, people did/do not like her. Blaming Russia is about the most complex answer you can come with as to why she lost, which should be the first clue that some critical thinking is in order.
- gph 8y ago
  What blatant BS. We know from Facebook that the Internet Research Agency and other Russian backed organizations bought political ads with the clear intent to spread misinformation and inflame both sides in order to sow unrest and distrust in our political system. To say it wasn't successful is just being obtuse.
  - XaoDaoCaoCao 8y ago
    >order to sow unrest and distrust in our political system. Intent =/= Actual Effectiveness The current debt regime is doing a fantastic job at alienating a generation from the status quo. If Russia paid to piss in a Great Lake of piss, that doesn't mean the Great Lake of piss was created or even substantially altered by Russia.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
  - chlvsl 8y ago
    What conclusive proof do they have? Is that proof really indicative or is it something like "someone using cyrillic keyset edited this so it was russia 100% guaranteed". I am very curious to see what they determined is proof.
  - aksss 8y ago
    Well, there were studies showing the impact was minimal to zero - that it reached very few people, constituted a fraction of a percentage of total political content on social media, and those it did reach were already likely to be hyper-partisan. https://www.vox.com/conversations/2017/1/27/14266228/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-fake-news-media-2016-election https://www.vox.com/conversations/2017/1/27/14266228/donald-... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/02/health/fake-news-conservative-liberal.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/02/health/fake-news-conserva... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/13/upshot/fake-news-and-bots-may-be-worrisome-but-their-political-power-is-overblown.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/13/upshot/fake-news-and-bots... And then there's the DNI report, which if you actually read, paints a pretty lame picture of what actually happened, and in no way supports the idea that the election was impacted.
- rexpop 8y ago
  How do you measure success?
  - ConceitedCode 8y ago
    Same ways you measure engagement with any other advertising campaign. Comments on promoted posts, number of likes, number of shares, number of clicks, etc....
- Azerty9999 8y ago
  To understand the actual details of how Russia carried out its campaign, I highly recommend listening to this Sam Harris podcast where he interviews Renée DiResta and she's familiar with the facts: https://samharris.org/podcasts/145-information-war/ https://samharris.org/podcasts/145-information-war/ Some of the work of the Russian trolls were quite successful - they encouraged tribalism and sowed division within the US.

Shekelberg 8y ago

> Russian disinformation campaign If you're concerned about the pocket change Russia spent on US election ads, you must be apoplectic over the massive amount of US campaign donations and media ownership by Israeli citizens. I assume you are not just using Russia to delegitimize your political opposition, and are genuinely concerned about foreign interference in US politics, so what do you propose we do about the Jewish problem?

malvosenior 8y ago

"Russian disinformation campaign could succeed there to the extent it did in the west?" What proof do you have that the Russians had a successful disinformation campaign in the west? I've seen none.

drhodes 8y ago
people who have worked for russian troll farms have given interviews: https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/curious-case-russian-flash-mob-west-palm-beach-cheesecake-factory https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/curious-case-russian-flash...
- malvosenior 8y ago
  There's nothing in that interview that suggests any of this was effective (if it even happened at all). Even Correct The Record (Hillary's massive social media astro turf team), couldn't turn the election around for her and it was orders of magnitude larger than what is claimed the Russian's did in this podcast. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correct_the_Record https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correct_the_Record The fact is, despite all the media whinging, it turns out it's incredibly difficult if not impossible to brainwash an entire nation of people into voting for someone they wouldn't normally vote for.
  - drhodes 8y ago
    You're black and white on this. The entire nation of people doesn't need to be brainwashed. The world is gray. The dynamics of the election was changed. Did Putin elect Trump? It's impossible to say. Did Putin help elect Trump? Yes.
    - JetSpiegel 8y ago
      Putin helped to elect Trump in the same way an ant riding an elephant remarks "Look at all the dust we are leaving behind". In the land of Citizens United and unlimited SuperPAC, the fake news factories barely register in the influence measurements. Now, having kompromat in both criminal terms and personal embarassement is another story, but that is a failing on the USA. The 'checks and balances' allowed a President compromised by a foreign power to last at least 2 years.
  - aksss 8y ago
    @drhodes, it's not impossible to say. https://www.vox.com/conversations/2017/1/27/14266228/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-fake-news-media-2016-election https://www.vox.com/conversations/2017/1/27/14266228/donald-... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/02/health/fake-news-conservative-liberal.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/02/health/fake-news-conserva... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/13/upshot/fake-news-and-bots-may-be-worrisome-but-their-political-power-is-overblown.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/13/upshot/fake-news-and-bots... At some point, an incredibly obstinate subset of the American population will need to realize that Hillary failed for very mundane reasons. At the end of the day, people did/do not like her. Blaming Russia is about the most complex answer you can come with as to why she lost, which should be the first clue that some critical thinking is in order.
gph 8y ago
What blatant BS. We know from Facebook that the Internet Research Agency and other Russian backed organizations bought political ads with the clear intent to spread misinformation and inflame both sides in order to sow unrest and distrust in our political system. To say it wasn't successful is just being obtuse.
- XaoDaoCaoCao 8y ago
  >order to sow unrest and distrust in our political system. Intent =/= Actual Effectiveness The current debt regime is doing a fantastic job at alienating a generation from the status quo. If Russia paid to piss in a Great Lake of piss, that doesn't mean the Great Lake of piss was created or even substantially altered by Russia.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- chlvsl 8y ago
  What conclusive proof do they have? Is that proof really indicative or is it something like "someone using cyrillic keyset edited this so it was russia 100% guaranteed". I am very curious to see what they determined is proof.
- aksss 8y ago
  Well, there were studies showing the impact was minimal to zero - that it reached very few people, constituted a fraction of a percentage of total political content on social media, and those it did reach were already likely to be hyper-partisan. https://www.vox.com/conversations/2017/1/27/14266228/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-fake-news-media-2016-election https://www.vox.com/conversations/2017/1/27/14266228/donald-... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/02/health/fake-news-conservative-liberal.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/02/health/fake-news-conserva... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/13/upshot/fake-news-and-bots-may-be-worrisome-but-their-political-power-is-overblown.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/13/upshot/fake-news-and-bots... And then there's the DNI report, which if you actually read, paints a pretty lame picture of what actually happened, and in no way supports the idea that the election was impacted.
rexpop 8y ago
How do you measure success?
- ConceitedCode 8y ago
  Same ways you measure engagement with any other advertising campaign. Comments on promoted posts, number of likes, number of shares, number of clicks, etc....
Azerty9999 8y ago
To understand the actual details of how Russia carried out its campaign, I highly recommend listening to this Sam Harris podcast where he interviews Renée DiResta and she's familiar with the facts: https://samharris.org/podcasts/145-information-war/ https://samharris.org/podcasts/145-information-war/ Some of the work of the Russian trolls were quite successful - they encouraged tribalism and sowed division within the US.