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I suspect you're actually in the majority. I bet that, rather, the minority position is that the instructor should create whatever conditions they want to so t

by pohl 16y ago

I suspect you're actually in the majority. I bet that, rather, the minority position is that the instructor should create whatever conditions they want to so that they can exercise the students as they see fit - and that the students should extend enough respect to consider why those conditions are being created. This is my view. Replace the teacher with a coach in a weightlifting class. One day he wants you to lift some freeweights, but he wants you to lift them in a particular way that does not use your legs. (Let's say he's having you do "military presses".) "Nonsense!" says the modern student, who already knows that it's best to lift heavy things with their legs. "Why shouldn't I be able to use this awesome resource (my legs) that's right here at my disposal!?" Well maybe - just maybe - the coach wants to target your deltoids. Hmmm. Enter Professor Luis von Ahn, who wants you to do homework without using google. Perhaps that is because he doesn't want you to target and improve your research abilities. It could be that, rather, he would like you to exercise and sculpt your ability to work problems from first principles. The professor may be aware that practice makes permanent, and homework is intended to get students to strengthen specific things, and that taking the easy way out robs the student of the intended benefit. That's how I approach being a student, and so I grant that when sensei says wax-on, paint-uh-fence, and sand-uh-flo that he's got some idea of what I should be working on. But that's an old, old attitude that exists only in a handful of Hollywood movies these days. So that's why I'm betting you're actually in the majority. By the way, the instructor here is an awesome guy. Anybody who hasn't heard of Luis von Ahn should do themselves a favor and watch his presentation on Human Computation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtFroEJN1nI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtFroEJN1nI

bkrausz 16y ago
Can't upvote this enough. 1) The early homeworks in this class were basically puzzles, where if you’ve seen the style of problem before you more or less knew the answer. The goal was to expose us to these types of problems and teach us how to think them through properly. 2) The class was taught by Luis just as he was beginning to hit mainstream media. The guy has a unique approach to problems that was absolutely inspiring. His lectures were one of the few that I actually made an effort to go to.
- Retric 16y ago
  IMO, the most economically valuable lesson an above average student learns at a top collage is how to cheat effectively. Four years is no where near enough time to provide a good education, but plenty for a gentle wake-up call to how the world actually works. Edit: Now here is someone that was actually paying attention: I believe it was called Finkleberg’s 101 game, at least when I took the class. Maybe he pulled the same trick with a different problem several times. I remember thinking “this is such a googleable problem” because of the peculiar name so I actually assumed that a google search for the name would be a honeypot trap. My assumption proved correct. PS: There are plenty of great resources at a top institution to learn, but you can only explore a tiny fraction of them.
  - wisty 16y ago
    Would you think that one of the most economically valuable things universities do is kicking out cheats? Because they are the ones who will (most likely) back-stab their way to a CEO position, then run down the company while still paying themselves out-sized bonuses.
jemfinch 16y ago
> the instructor should create whatever conditions they want to so that they can exercise the students as they see fit I don't disagree, as long as the instructor is able to defend the pedagogical purpose of the limitations he demands. The OP is essentially contending that few situations warrant such limitations, and I agree with him about that.
- pohl 16y ago
  as long as the instructor is able to defend the pedagogical purpose of the limitations he demands I just had a thought over my morning coffee: I would agree that the instructor should be able to defend such choices to the head of the department. The instructor may choose to defend the choice to the student, but the instructor should only be required to defend the choice to the student if the student is also required to be able to defend why they should be allowed to be there. I fear the most precious thing we've lost in our modern society is a student's willingness to bring themselves to the process, and so if I (as an instructor) must defend why I've set boundaries on an exercise then then you (as the student) must be able to defend that you really want to learn what I have to teach. Alas, higher education has been reduced to a transaction for a service, and "the customer is always right". few situations warrant such limitations, and I agree with him about that. I have the opposite view. Most of the homework that I've ever seen (as a Math & Comp Sci double major) was about the benefit of the exercise, and very rarely about strengthening research abilities. But, then, I was in school when Tim Berners-Lee was gestating the world wide web concept at CERN.
xenophanes 16y ago
Many math teachers ban calculators on math tests. I'm pretty sure this has majority support, not minority. Google does simple math, so that's basically an equivalent issue. IMO it's dumb -- in real life you have access to Google. But I mostly wanted to say I think there's clearly majority support for artificial grading conditions, since the no-calculators thing is so popular.
- DrJokepu 16y ago
  I suppose it depends on the university, department and teacher, but we were allowed to use calculators on math exams. Of course, they weren't helpful at all - if you knew how to solve the problem the calculations were so simple that you didn't need a calculator, if you didn't, you couldn't solve the problem no matter how good your calculator was. For similar reasons, we were also allowed to bring in any books, notes etc. to exams. If you didn't have a good understanding of the subject, they weren't helpful at all as there was no time to start figuring out things, but if knew stuff, you didn't need the books and lecture notes at all or only for reference. Sometimes I miss those times.
- tzs 16y ago
  > IMO it's dumb -- in real life you have access to Google. If one is taking a class merely to learn how to Google for the answers, then one should not be in a university. One should be in a trade school which only teaches you enough of your fields of study to be able to figure out the right terms to Google for. When you take university classes, the goal is to learn to be the people that provide the solutions that the trade schoolers will Google for.
- archgoon 16y ago
  If you have access to Google, you have access Wolfram Alpha. However, the point of math courses is not to demonstrate that you know how to punch buttons, but that you know the methods and algorithms behind those tools.
- blahedo 16y ago
  Calculator bans aren't nearly as common now as they were ten or fifteen years ago. Pretty much all the major exams allow them, and questions are often written with this in mind.
enjo 16y ago
I had a CS professor who expressly prohibited the use of graphical debuggers for much the same reason.

by pohl 16y ago

bkrausz 16y ago

Can't upvote this enough. 1) The early homeworks in this class were basically puzzles, where if you’ve seen the style of problem before you more or less knew the answer. The goal was to expose us to these types of problems and teach us how to think them through properly. 2) The class was taught by Luis just as he was beginning to hit mainstream media. The guy has a unique approach to problems that was absolutely inspiring. His lectures were one of the few that I actually made an effort to go to.

Retric 16y ago
IMO, the most economically valuable lesson an above average student learns at a top collage is how to cheat effectively. Four years is no where near enough time to provide a good education, but plenty for a gentle wake-up call to how the world actually works. Edit: Now here is someone that was actually paying attention: I believe it was called Finkleberg’s 101 game, at least when I took the class. Maybe he pulled the same trick with a different problem several times. I remember thinking “this is such a googleable problem” because of the peculiar name so I actually assumed that a google search for the name would be a honeypot trap. My assumption proved correct. PS: There are plenty of great resources at a top institution to learn, but you can only explore a tiny fraction of them.
- wisty 16y ago
  Would you think that one of the most economically valuable things universities do is kicking out cheats? Because they are the ones who will (most likely) back-stab their way to a CEO position, then run down the company while still paying themselves out-sized bonuses.

jemfinch 16y ago

> the instructor should create whatever conditions they want to so that they can exercise the students as they see fit I don't disagree, as long as the instructor is able to defend the pedagogical purpose of the limitations he demands. The OP is essentially contending that few situations warrant such limitations, and I agree with him about that.

pohl 16y ago
as long as the instructor is able to defend the pedagogical purpose of the limitations he demands I just had a thought over my morning coffee: I would agree that the instructor should be able to defend such choices to the head of the department. The instructor may choose to defend the choice to the student, but the instructor should only be required to defend the choice to the student if the student is also required to be able to defend why they should be allowed to be there. I fear the most precious thing we've lost in our modern society is a student's willingness to bring themselves to the process, and so if I (as an instructor) must defend why I've set boundaries on an exercise then then you (as the student) must be able to defend that you really want to learn what I have to teach. Alas, higher education has been reduced to a transaction for a service, and "the customer is always right". few situations warrant such limitations, and I agree with him about that. I have the opposite view. Most of the homework that I've ever seen (as a Math & Comp Sci double major) was about the benefit of the exercise, and very rarely about strengthening research abilities. But, then, I was in school when Tim Berners-Lee was gestating the world wide web concept at CERN.

xenophanes 16y ago

Many math teachers ban calculators on math tests. I'm pretty sure this has majority support, not minority. Google does simple math, so that's basically an equivalent issue. IMO it's dumb -- in real life you have access to Google. But I mostly wanted to say I think there's clearly majority support for artificial grading conditions, since the no-calculators thing is so popular.

DrJokepu 16y ago
I suppose it depends on the university, department and teacher, but we were allowed to use calculators on math exams. Of course, they weren't helpful at all - if you knew how to solve the problem the calculations were so simple that you didn't need a calculator, if you didn't, you couldn't solve the problem no matter how good your calculator was. For similar reasons, we were also allowed to bring in any books, notes etc. to exams. If you didn't have a good understanding of the subject, they weren't helpful at all as there was no time to start figuring out things, but if knew stuff, you didn't need the books and lecture notes at all or only for reference. Sometimes I miss those times.
tzs 16y ago
> IMO it's dumb -- in real life you have access to Google. If one is taking a class merely to learn how to Google for the answers, then one should not be in a university. One should be in a trade school which only teaches you enough of your fields of study to be able to figure out the right terms to Google for. When you take university classes, the goal is to learn to be the people that provide the solutions that the trade schoolers will Google for.
archgoon 16y ago
If you have access to Google, you have access Wolfram Alpha. However, the point of math courses is not to demonstrate that you know how to punch buttons, but that you know the methods and algorithms behind those tools.
blahedo 16y ago
Calculator bans aren't nearly as common now as they were ten or fifteen years ago. Pretty much all the major exams allow them, and questions are often written with this in mind.

enjo 16y ago

I had a CS professor who expressly prohibited the use of graphical debuggers for much the same reason.