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People working on React at Facebook don't seem particularly fazed to me, but I think it's weird when people declare that working at Facebook is bad because Face

People working on React at Facebook don't seem particularly fazed to me, but I think it's weird when people declare that working at Facebook is bad because Facebook does some bad things. The countries we live in do lots of bad things but we can still be proud of our country, pay taxes, and keep ourselves away from the ethically dubious activity. Similarly, someone working away on React in Facebook doesn't have to get involved in face tracking or whatever.

_Microft 8y ago
Isn't it like working in the supply chain of a questionable business? Ofcourse you are not doing bad things yourself but without you, others might not be able to.
hopler 8y ago
It's one thing to work on the roads and sewers, and psychology distance yourself from the military drone program. It's another when the core business model and the CEO's own stated goals are hostile to humanity.
- badfrog 8y ago
  > the CEO's own stated goals are hostile to humanity Are you saying that is the case with Facebook? Can you explain?
- blotter_paper 8y ago
  The US government has a business model (propping up the petrodollar through military force, circulating it around the world, and debasing it ad nauseum) that is hostile towards humanity. I can't imagine arguing that working for facebook is worse than working for the US government. You can psychologically distance yourself from whatever you want to, but one of these organizations murders children and the other one markets bullshit to them (both spy). I don't like either, but I see the one doing the murdering as having more, ya know... blood on their hands.
zepto 8y ago
Except that it’s not that Facebook ‘does some bad things’. Those bad things are pervasive and fundamental to facebook’s relationship with its users.
- nickelcitymario 8y ago
  And the bad things your country does (whatever country you're in and whatever your politics) aren't pervasive and fundamental to your country's relationship with its citizens? (I'm not a Facebook apologist. I think they deserve every bit of criticism they get. I just think the previous poster makes a solid point.)
  - zepto 8y ago
    I think it’s an interesting analogy, but it’s also a fundamentally flawed one and doesn’t apply. That problem does exist with countries. The mechanisms for trying to fix that with regard to countries, are things like democracy, revolutions, investigative journalism, and international pressure. We tend to be conservative about how we try to change our countries because most people’s livelihoods and even lives depend on our decisions. This is absolutely not the case for a social media company. It’s just a capitalist corporation. One of the asserted benefits of capitalism is that we have competition and companies can simply fail if they don’t serve our needs or be shut down if they end up being harmful. I.e. We have to tolerate countries that do bad things and the struggle to fix them is long and hard, because the costs of a failed state are enormous. Unlike with states, don’t have to tolerate bad companies, in not tolerating them, we create the opportunities that lead to something better emerging.
    - nickelcitymario 8y ago
      Well said! Thanks for expanding on that. I fully accept your argument.
  - twinge 8y ago
    It's a lot harder to change citizenship than it is for a Facebook caliber engineer to change jobs. jwz says it best: > If you work for Facebook, quit. It is morally indefensible for you to use your skills to make that company more powerful. By working there, you are making the world an objectively worse place. I'm sure you can find a job working for a company that you don't have to apologize for all the time.
rkangel 8y ago
> I think it's weird when people declare that working at Facebook is bad because Facebook does some bad things It's about making ethical decisions when a choice is available. One of the advantages of being a software engineer is that there are too few of us to go around: if you are halfway competent then you get some choice as to where to work. Involving some ethics in that decision is appropriate. It would be different if you were unskilled and needed any job to pay the bills. You don't get to choose what country you are born in. You do get to choose who you vote for (in many countries), and that's the place where your ethics comes in.
- badfrog 8y ago
  > you get some choice as to where to work People's career decisions tend to be motivated by money. If you're looking to maximize your compensation, the options are Big Tech (Google and Amazon have similar levels of ethics issues as Facebook) or finance (depending on your views, potentially even less ethical). I'm not saying working at one of these places is the right decision, but it's very much an understandable one.
  - ionised 8y ago
    Is 'maximising your compensation' the only goal? Isn't maximising your earnings supposed to be a means to something greater, not an end in itself?
    - badfrog 8y ago
      The only goal for your life? Hopefully not. The only goal for your career? Some people would say yes. Some others would say it's not the only goal but is important enough to compromise on other goals.
- rob 8y ago
  "One of the advantages of being a software engineer is that there are too few of us to go around" What year is it?
ionised 8y ago
> The countries we live in do lots of bad things but we can still be proud of our country I've always found the idea of 'being proud of your country' to be a strange one. Pretty much all of my country's accomplishments were before I was born, and even the ones after I was born were done without any involvement by me. So what's left? Should I be proud that I happeend to be born on this patch of land? Why? “The cheapest sort of pride is national pride; for if a man is proud of his own nation, it argues that he has no qualities of his own of which he can be proud; otherwise he would not have recourse to those which he shares with so many millions of his fellowmen. The man who is endowed with important personal qualities will be only too ready to see clearly in what respects his own nation falls short, since their failings will be constantly before his eyes. But every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud adopts, as a last resource, pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and glad to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority.” — Arthur Schopenhauer

_Microft 8y ago

Isn't it like working in the supply chain of a questionable business? Ofcourse you are not doing bad things yourself but without you, others might not be able to.

hopler 8y ago

It's one thing to work on the roads and sewers, and psychology distance yourself from the military drone program. It's another when the core business model and the CEO's own stated goals are hostile to humanity.

badfrog 8y ago
> the CEO's own stated goals are hostile to humanity Are you saying that is the case with Facebook? Can you explain?
blotter_paper 8y ago
The US government has a business model (propping up the petrodollar through military force, circulating it around the world, and debasing it ad nauseum) that is hostile towards humanity. I can't imagine arguing that working for facebook is worse than working for the US government. You can psychologically distance yourself from whatever you want to, but one of these organizations murders children and the other one markets bullshit to them (both spy). I don't like either, but I see the one doing the murdering as having more, ya know... blood on their hands.

zepto 8y ago

Except that it’s not that Facebook ‘does some bad things’. Those bad things are pervasive and fundamental to facebook’s relationship with its users.

nickelcitymario 8y ago
And the bad things your country does (whatever country you're in and whatever your politics) aren't pervasive and fundamental to your country's relationship with its citizens? (I'm not a Facebook apologist. I think they deserve every bit of criticism they get. I just think the previous poster makes a solid point.)
- zepto 8y ago
  I think it’s an interesting analogy, but it’s also a fundamentally flawed one and doesn’t apply. That problem does exist with countries. The mechanisms for trying to fix that with regard to countries, are things like democracy, revolutions, investigative journalism, and international pressure. We tend to be conservative about how we try to change our countries because most people’s livelihoods and even lives depend on our decisions. This is absolutely not the case for a social media company. It’s just a capitalist corporation. One of the asserted benefits of capitalism is that we have competition and companies can simply fail if they don’t serve our needs or be shut down if they end up being harmful. I.e. We have to tolerate countries that do bad things and the struggle to fix them is long and hard, because the costs of a failed state are enormous. Unlike with states, don’t have to tolerate bad companies, in not tolerating them, we create the opportunities that lead to something better emerging.
  - nickelcitymario 8y ago
    Well said! Thanks for expanding on that. I fully accept your argument.
- twinge 8y ago
  It's a lot harder to change citizenship than it is for a Facebook caliber engineer to change jobs. jwz says it best: > If you work for Facebook, quit. It is morally indefensible for you to use your skills to make that company more powerful. By working there, you are making the world an objectively worse place. I'm sure you can find a job working for a company that you don't have to apologize for all the time.

rkangel 8y ago

> I think it's weird when people declare that working at Facebook is bad because Facebook does some bad things It's about making ethical decisions when a choice is available. One of the advantages of being a software engineer is that there are too few of us to go around: if you are halfway competent then you get some choice as to where to work. Involving some ethics in that decision is appropriate. It would be different if you were unskilled and needed any job to pay the bills. You don't get to choose what country you are born in. You do get to choose who you vote for (in many countries), and that's the place where your ethics comes in.

badfrog 8y ago
> you get some choice as to where to work People's career decisions tend to be motivated by money. If you're looking to maximize your compensation, the options are Big Tech (Google and Amazon have similar levels of ethics issues as Facebook) or finance (depending on your views, potentially even less ethical). I'm not saying working at one of these places is the right decision, but it's very much an understandable one.
- ionised 8y ago
  Is 'maximising your compensation' the only goal? Isn't maximising your earnings supposed to be a means to something greater, not an end in itself?
  - badfrog 8y ago
    The only goal for your life? Hopefully not. The only goal for your career? Some people would say yes. Some others would say it's not the only goal but is important enough to compromise on other goals.
rob 8y ago
"One of the advantages of being a software engineer is that there are too few of us to go around" What year is it?

ionised 8y ago

> The countries we live in do lots of bad things but we can still be proud of our country I've always found the idea of 'being proud of your country' to be a strange one. Pretty much all of my country's accomplishments were before I was born, and even the ones after I was born were done without any involvement by me. So what's left? Should I be proud that I happeend to be born on this patch of land? Why? “The cheapest sort of pride is national pride; for if a man is proud of his own nation, it argues that he has no qualities of his own of which he can be proud; otherwise he would not have recourse to those which he shares with so many millions of his fellowmen. The man who is endowed with important personal qualities will be only too ready to see clearly in what respects his own nation falls short, since their failings will be constantly before his eyes. But every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud adopts, as a last resource, pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and glad to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority.” — Arthur Schopenhauer