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Long before the Wikileaks report there was the report by Major General Taguba which included in it the fact that a man was forced to rape his son while under U.

Long before the Wikileaks report there was the report by Major General Taguba which included in it the fact that a man was forced to rape his son while under U.S. custody. In the Wikileaks documents we come to know that the Iraqi forces routinely torture. Our leaders knew this and yet did little to stop it. They refused to allow Red Cross personnel to have access. One can hide behind the fact that it was Iraqis doing this but given our sway over their forces this doesn't hold water with me. We did nothing to stop these abuses. We turned over detainees to people we knew were going to torture. It makes us just as guilty as the ones who were doing the torture. Getting other people to do the dirty work is no less reprehensible. The leaked documents show that our forces deliberately killed people while in the process of surrenduring. Our forces have executed civilians. The picture painted by these document is indeed a bleak one. It also demonstrates that we, as a nation, have no moral authority. The meme that we are good and they are bad is a false one that has been destroyed by our actions in this war in the minds of the rest of the world. It just hasn't sunk in with the average American. I don't advocate that we leave Iraq right now. It's a mess. I do advocate that generals and former Presidents be arrested for war crimes though. It's sad to me as an American that we have sunk so low so fast.

cabalamat 16y ago
> One can hide behind the fact that it was Iraqis doing this but given our sway over their forces this doesn't hold water with me. We did nothing to stop these abuses. Realistically, I'm not sure there's a lot the USA could do. When US forces arrest an Iraqi within Iraq, then it's a violation of Iraqi sovereignty not to hand him over to the Iraqi authorities. Given where Iraq is now (a history of repression, just becoming democratic), it would be extremely naive to expect Iraqi forces never to violate human rights. Unless the USA wants to stay in Iraq forever -- which would be unacceptable to both the American and Iraqi publics, and would make the situation worse anyway -- they have to accept that some torture and other human rights violations will occur.
- yequalsx 16y ago
  "...then it's a violation of Iraqi sovereignty not to hand him over to the Iraqi authorities. " Ha. Funny. "...they have to accept that some torture and other human rights violations will occur." I'm reminded of Bush writing, "Let freedom ring" on the memo he got after the new Iraq government was instituted.
GHFigs 16y ago
...there was the report by Major General Taguba which included in it the fact that a man was forced to rape his son while under U.S. custody. There is no such finding in the Taguba Report. One can hide behind the fact that it was Iraqis doing this... Being accurate is not "hiding". The assertion that I read was that Wikileaks had released "documents about the U.S. torturing people". That assertion is false. The distinction is absolutely crucial to what can and should be done about it.
- yequalsx 16y ago
  Sorry. My mistake. General Taguba's report showed that a man was forced to have sex with a teenage boy. The boy wasn't his son. Delivering prisoners to people who you know will torture them is the same as conducting the torture yourself. The distinction is meaningless.
  - GHFigs 16y ago
    General Taguba's report showed that a man was forced to have sex with a teenage boy. It did not. Please do not mistake me for someone unwilling or unable to do my own research, or someone interested in being lied to. This will be my final comment. The finding that you are misreporting is on page 17, item I, under the heading "I find the intentional abuse of detainees by military personel included the following acts": "Writing "I am a Rapest" (sic) on the leg of a detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year old fellow detainee and then photographing him naked;" If you believe that events transpired differently, that is your right, but it is not supported by the report you cited. The distinction is meaningless. Let me reiterate with different emphasis: The distinction is absolutely crucial to what can and should be done about it. Having a clear picture of the problem and being accurate and precise about what is actually going on is essential to finding a solution. Obscuring the problem under a blurry haze of blame is not a solution and doesn't get you any closer to one. It's like trying to untangle a knotted mess of cables by trying to decide which cable's fault it is and then pointing at it harder and harder in the hope that it will resolve itself.
    - yequalsx 16y ago

cabalamat 16y ago

> One can hide behind the fact that it was Iraqis doing this but given our sway over their forces this doesn't hold water with me. We did nothing to stop these abuses. Realistically, I'm not sure there's a lot the USA could do. When US forces arrest an Iraqi within Iraq, then it's a violation of Iraqi sovereignty not to hand him over to the Iraqi authorities. Given where Iraq is now (a history of repression, just becoming democratic), it would be extremely naive to expect Iraqi forces never to violate human rights. Unless the USA wants to stay in Iraq forever -- which would be unacceptable to both the American and Iraqi publics, and would make the situation worse anyway -- they have to accept that some torture and other human rights violations will occur.

yequalsx 16y ago
"...then it's a violation of Iraqi sovereignty not to hand him over to the Iraqi authorities. " Ha. Funny. "...they have to accept that some torture and other human rights violations will occur." I'm reminded of Bush writing, "Let freedom ring" on the memo he got after the new Iraq government was instituted.

GHFigs 16y ago

...there was the report by Major General Taguba which included in it the fact that a man was forced to rape his son while under U.S. custody. There is no such finding in the Taguba Report. One can hide behind the fact that it was Iraqis doing this... Being accurate is not "hiding". The assertion that I read was that Wikileaks had released "documents about the U.S. torturing people". That assertion is false. The distinction is absolutely crucial to what can and should be done about it.

yequalsx 16y ago
Sorry. My mistake. General Taguba's report showed that a man was forced to have sex with a teenage boy. The boy wasn't his son. Delivering prisoners to people who you know will torture them is the same as conducting the torture yourself. The distinction is meaningless.
- GHFigs 16y ago
  General Taguba's report showed that a man was forced to have sex with a teenage boy. It did not. Please do not mistake me for someone unwilling or unable to do my own research, or someone interested in being lied to. This will be my final comment. The finding that you are misreporting is on page 17, item I, under the heading "I find the intentional abuse of detainees by military personel included the following acts": "Writing "I am a Rapest" (sic) on the leg of a detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year old fellow detainee and then photographing him naked;" If you believe that events transpired differently, that is your right, but it is not supported by the report you cited. The distinction is meaningless. Let me reiterate with different emphasis: The distinction is absolutely crucial to what can and should be done about it. Having a clear picture of the problem and being accurate and precise about what is actually going on is essential to finding a solution. Obscuring the problem under a blurry haze of blame is not a solution and doesn't get you any closer to one. It's like trying to untangle a knotted mess of cables by trying to decide which cable's fault it is and then pointing at it harder and harder in the hope that it will resolve itself.
  - yequalsx 16y ago