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documents about the U.S. torturing people Do you have a specific example of this? Every instance I have seen or heard about refers to the actions of Iraqi secu

by GHFigs 16y ago

documents about the U.S. torturing people Do you have a specific example of this? Every instance I have seen or heard about refers to the actions of Iraqi security forces. hasn't had any adverse affect on the support for the war. It's proof that people just don't care. At the risk of being mistaken for some kind of right-wing buffoon, I have to say that what I've gleaned from the Iraq war leak has had an adverse effect on my opposition to it. The sketch of what Iraq will be after the US withdraws is there and I'm not convinced it's any better. I still don't know what to do with that, but perhaps it's a sign of why many or most people don't care: there is no simple answer. That is, you can't just release a bunch of documents and end a war, because such documents will only give you a higher resolution picture of a complex reality. I think that Wikileaks has sort of hobbled itself by relying on document bombs and overt political objectives instead of just focusing on sensemaking. They get a lot more attention this way, but much less capacity to change minds. The need by governments to keep everything secret is a bit irrational. People don't care. You're basing that on the mistaken assumption that the intent of all military secrecy is to withhold information from the citizens it serves and not enemies current and potential. The widespread appeal of that assumption is what WIkileaks depends on for donations but it's still bonkers.

yequalsx 16y ago
Long before the Wikileaks report there was the report by Major General Taguba which included in it the fact that a man was forced to rape his son while under U.S. custody. In the Wikileaks documents we come to know that the Iraqi forces routinely torture. Our leaders knew this and yet did little to stop it. They refused to allow Red Cross personnel to have access. One can hide behind the fact that it was Iraqis doing this but given our sway over their forces this doesn't hold water with me. We did nothing to stop these abuses. We turned over detainees to people we knew were going to torture. It makes us just as guilty as the ones who were doing the torture. Getting other people to do the dirty work is no less reprehensible. The leaked documents show that our forces deliberately killed people while in the process of surrenduring. Our forces have executed civilians. The picture painted by these document is indeed a bleak one. It also demonstrates that we, as a nation, have no moral authority. The meme that we are good and they are bad is a false one that has been destroyed by our actions in this war in the minds of the rest of the world. It just hasn't sunk in with the average American. I don't advocate that we leave Iraq right now. It's a mess. I do advocate that generals and former Presidents be arrested for war crimes though. It's sad to me as an American that we have sunk so low so fast.
- cabalamat 16y ago
  > One can hide behind the fact that it was Iraqis doing this but given our sway over their forces this doesn't hold water with me. We did nothing to stop these abuses. Realistically, I'm not sure there's a lot the USA could do. When US forces arrest an Iraqi within Iraq, then it's a violation of Iraqi sovereignty not to hand him over to the Iraqi authorities. Given where Iraq is now (a history of repression, just becoming democratic), it would be extremely naive to expect Iraqi forces never to violate human rights. Unless the USA wants to stay in Iraq forever -- which would be unacceptable to both the American and Iraqi publics, and would make the situation worse anyway -- they have to accept that some torture and other human rights violations will occur.
  - yequalsx 16y ago
    "...then it's a violation of Iraqi sovereignty not to hand him over to the Iraqi authorities. " Ha. Funny. "...they have to accept that some torture and other human rights violations will occur." I'm reminded of Bush writing, "Let freedom ring" on the memo he got after the new Iraq government was instituted.
- GHFigs 16y ago
  ...there was the report by Major General Taguba which included in it the fact that a man was forced to rape his son while under U.S. custody. There is no such finding in the Taguba Report. One can hide behind the fact that it was Iraqis doing this... Being accurate is not "hiding". The assertion that I read was that Wikileaks had released "documents about the U.S. torturing people". That assertion is false. The distinction is absolutely crucial to what can and should be done about it.
  - yequalsx 16y ago
    Sorry. My mistake. General Taguba's report showed that a man was forced to have sex with a teenage boy. The boy wasn't his son. Delivering prisoners to people who you know will torture them is the same as conducting the torture yourself. The distinction is meaningless.
nubian 16y ago
I'm not sure if you're only referring to WikiLeaks, but as for torture: The CIA's waterboarding regimen was so excruciating, the memos show, that agency officials found themselves grappling with an unexpected development: detainees simply gave up and tried to let themselves drown. http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2010/03/09/waterboarding_for_dummies http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2010/03/09/waterboarding_f... "Finally, to keep detainees alive even if they inhaled their own vomit during a session – a not-uncommon side effect of waterboarding – the prisoners were kept on a liquid diet. The agency recommended Ensure Plus."

by GHFigs 16y ago

yequalsx 16y ago

Long before the Wikileaks report there was the report by Major General Taguba which included in it the fact that a man was forced to rape his son while under U.S. custody. In the Wikileaks documents we come to know that the Iraqi forces routinely torture. Our leaders knew this and yet did little to stop it. They refused to allow Red Cross personnel to have access. One can hide behind the fact that it was Iraqis doing this but given our sway over their forces this doesn't hold water with me. We did nothing to stop these abuses. We turned over detainees to people we knew were going to torture. It makes us just as guilty as the ones who were doing the torture. Getting other people to do the dirty work is no less reprehensible. The leaked documents show that our forces deliberately killed people while in the process of surrenduring. Our forces have executed civilians. The picture painted by these document is indeed a bleak one. It also demonstrates that we, as a nation, have no moral authority. The meme that we are good and they are bad is a false one that has been destroyed by our actions in this war in the minds of the rest of the world. It just hasn't sunk in with the average American. I don't advocate that we leave Iraq right now. It's a mess. I do advocate that generals and former Presidents be arrested for war crimes though. It's sad to me as an American that we have sunk so low so fast.

cabalamat 16y ago
> One can hide behind the fact that it was Iraqis doing this but given our sway over their forces this doesn't hold water with me. We did nothing to stop these abuses. Realistically, I'm not sure there's a lot the USA could do. When US forces arrest an Iraqi within Iraq, then it's a violation of Iraqi sovereignty not to hand him over to the Iraqi authorities. Given where Iraq is now (a history of repression, just becoming democratic), it would be extremely naive to expect Iraqi forces never to violate human rights. Unless the USA wants to stay in Iraq forever -- which would be unacceptable to both the American and Iraqi publics, and would make the situation worse anyway -- they have to accept that some torture and other human rights violations will occur.
- yequalsx 16y ago
  "...then it's a violation of Iraqi sovereignty not to hand him over to the Iraqi authorities. " Ha. Funny. "...they have to accept that some torture and other human rights violations will occur." I'm reminded of Bush writing, "Let freedom ring" on the memo he got after the new Iraq government was instituted.
GHFigs 16y ago
...there was the report by Major General Taguba which included in it the fact that a man was forced to rape his son while under U.S. custody. There is no such finding in the Taguba Report. One can hide behind the fact that it was Iraqis doing this... Being accurate is not "hiding". The assertion that I read was that Wikileaks had released "documents about the U.S. torturing people". That assertion is false. The distinction is absolutely crucial to what can and should be done about it.
- yequalsx 16y ago
  Sorry. My mistake. General Taguba's report showed that a man was forced to have sex with a teenage boy. The boy wasn't his son. Delivering prisoners to people who you know will torture them is the same as conducting the torture yourself. The distinction is meaningless.

nubian 16y ago

I'm not sure if you're only referring to WikiLeaks, but as for torture: The CIA's waterboarding regimen was so excruciating, the memos show, that agency officials found themselves grappling with an unexpected development: detainees simply gave up and tried to let themselves drown. http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2010/03/09/waterboarding_for_dummies http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2010/03/09/waterboarding_f... "Finally, to keep detainees alive even if they inhaled their own vomit during a session – a not-uncommon side effect of waterboarding – the prisoners were kept on a liquid diet. The agency recommended Ensure Plus."