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Besides the implicit endorsement, does it really change anything on the ground? Existing search engines are already censored in China, and those that wish to by

Besides the implicit endorsement, does it really change anything on the ground? Existing search engines are already censored in China, and those that wish to bypass via VPN, can still do so after Google releases their censored version.

math_and_stuff 8y ago
My primary motivation is fighting these types of capitulations becoming precedents. If an American tech company will willfully aid the CCP in preventing information on human rights from spreading and build tools for a nationwide dragnet, what would they ever stand up for?
prepend 8y ago
This is such a weird argument when applied to other areas. “Does it really change anything on the ground? Someone else will make the ovens and gas chambers?” “Does it really change anything on the ground? Someone else will assassinate Archduke Ferdinand?” Etc. being morally opposed to something and trying to abstain from supporting it is not the same as campaigning against something’s existence. I wouldn’t work for a bomb company, but I’m not trying to shut down Lockheed Martin. There’s many different moral systems. Some people are trying to not make things worse. Others are doing different things. It’s ok that there are gradations.
- TACIXAT 8y ago
  I think your comparison to building gas chambers is hyperbolic and ridiculous.
  - jjeaff 8y ago
    So you are saying that China doesn't use their surveillance apparatus to find and murder political disedents?
  - the_duke 8y ago
    Well, China used to execute prisoners on demand if organ donations were needed. While not up there with the extermination of an entire religion, it is quite an impressive level of exploitation. They also imprison a large amount of people in re-education camps.
  - prepend 8y ago
    I agree with hyperbolic as was part of my intention. Sparking ww1 is also hyperbolic, I think. I don’t think it’s ridiculous as this feature by Goog, I think, will lead to many people having worse lives and dying. Providing equipment to totalitarian regimes is pretty bad in my book. China has used surveillance to execute political prisoners [0] in the past, so I think having better digital tools with better surveillance, logically, will lead to more executions and more oppression. While I do think more people died in ovens during the holocaust, I think the moral calculus is similar between an oven maker in 1936 and a dragonfly coder in 2019. [0] https://www.bmj.com/content/364/bmj.l596 https://www.bmj.com/content/364/bmj.l596
gowld 8y ago
All those employees count be doing something better if they cancel their authoritarian oppression project.
jumpman500 8y ago
It doesn't matter if it changes anything. It's about having principles and standing for something. We're a part of this world, and we have a duty to do the things we think are right. Not everything in life is a god damn utility maximization function. Sometimes you have to do the right thing because you want others to act the same way you do, and because it's wrong to build tools for future totalitarian rulers.

math_and_stuff 8y ago

My primary motivation is fighting these types of capitulations becoming precedents. If an American tech company will willfully aid the CCP in preventing information on human rights from spreading and build tools for a nationwide dragnet, what would they ever stand up for?

prepend 8y ago

This is such a weird argument when applied to other areas. “Does it really change anything on the ground? Someone else will make the ovens and gas chambers?” “Does it really change anything on the ground? Someone else will assassinate Archduke Ferdinand?” Etc. being morally opposed to something and trying to abstain from supporting it is not the same as campaigning against something’s existence. I wouldn’t work for a bomb company, but I’m not trying to shut down Lockheed Martin. There’s many different moral systems. Some people are trying to not make things worse. Others are doing different things. It’s ok that there are gradations.

TACIXAT 8y ago
I think your comparison to building gas chambers is hyperbolic and ridiculous.
- jjeaff 8y ago
  So you are saying that China doesn't use their surveillance apparatus to find and murder political disedents?
- the_duke 8y ago
  Well, China used to execute prisoners on demand if organ donations were needed. While not up there with the extermination of an entire religion, it is quite an impressive level of exploitation. They also imprison a large amount of people in re-education camps.
- prepend 8y ago
  I agree with hyperbolic as was part of my intention. Sparking ww1 is also hyperbolic, I think. I don’t think it’s ridiculous as this feature by Goog, I think, will lead to many people having worse lives and dying. Providing equipment to totalitarian regimes is pretty bad in my book. China has used surveillance to execute political prisoners [0] in the past, so I think having better digital tools with better surveillance, logically, will lead to more executions and more oppression. While I do think more people died in ovens during the holocaust, I think the moral calculus is similar between an oven maker in 1936 and a dragonfly coder in 2019. [0] https://www.bmj.com/content/364/bmj.l596 https://www.bmj.com/content/364/bmj.l596

gowld 8y ago

All those employees count be doing something better if they cancel their authoritarian oppression project.

jumpman500 8y ago

It doesn't matter if it changes anything. It's about having principles and standing for something. We're a part of this world, and we have a duty to do the things we think are right. Not everything in life is a god damn utility maximization function. Sometimes you have to do the right thing because you want others to act the same way you do, and because it's wrong to build tools for future totalitarian rulers.