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I am not okay with a company headquartered in a democratic country actively building tools to suppress political inquiry and organizing. To be clear, this inclu

I am not okay with a company headquartered in a democratic country actively building tools to suppress political inquiry and organizing. To be clear, this included Google literally building a blacklist containing the terms 'human rights' and 'student protest' and ensuring that the Chinese Communist Party could track Chinese citizens' queries by their phone number.

stri8ed 8y ago
Besides the implicit endorsement, does it really change anything on the ground? Existing search engines are already censored in China, and those that wish to bypass via VPN, can still do so after Google releases their censored version.
- math_and_stuff 8y ago
  My primary motivation is fighting these types of capitulations becoming precedents. If an American tech company will willfully aid the CCP in preventing information on human rights from spreading and build tools for a nationwide dragnet, what would they ever stand up for?
- prepend 8y ago
  This is such a weird argument when applied to other areas. “Does it really change anything on the ground? Someone else will make the ovens and gas chambers?” “Does it really change anything on the ground? Someone else will assassinate Archduke Ferdinand?” Etc. being morally opposed to something and trying to abstain from supporting it is not the same as campaigning against something’s existence. I wouldn’t work for a bomb company, but I’m not trying to shut down Lockheed Martin. There’s many different moral systems. Some people are trying to not make things worse. Others are doing different things. It’s ok that there are gradations.
  - TACIXAT 8y ago
    I think your comparison to building gas chambers is hyperbolic and ridiculous.
    - jjeaff 8y ago
      So you are saying that China doesn't use their surveillance apparatus to find and murder political disedents?
    - the_duke 8y ago
      Well, China used to execute prisoners on demand if organ donations were needed. While not up there with the extermination of an entire religion, it is quite an impressive level of exploitation. They also imprison a large amount of people in re-education camps.
    - prepend 8y ago
      I agree with hyperbolic as was part of my intention. Sparking ww1 is also hyperbolic, I think. I don’t think it’s ridiculous as this feature by Goog, I think, will lead to many people having worse lives and dying. Providing equipment to totalitarian regimes is pretty bad in my book. China has used surveillance to execute political prisoners [0] in the past, so I think having better digital tools with better surveillance, logically, will lead to more executions and more oppression. While I do think more people died in ovens during the holocaust, I think the moral calculus is similar between an oven maker in 1936 and a dragonfly coder in 2019. [0] https://www.bmj.com/content/364/bmj.l596 https://www.bmj.com/content/364/bmj.l596
- gowld 8y ago
  All those employees count be doing something better if they cancel their authoritarian oppression project.
- jumpman500 8y ago
  It doesn't matter if it changes anything. It's about having principles and standing for something. We're a part of this world, and we have a duty to do the things we think are right. Not everything in life is a god damn utility maximization function. Sometimes you have to do the right thing because you want others to act the same way you do, and because it's wrong to build tools for future totalitarian rulers.
fireattack 8y ago
I don't get it. As a Chinese, I can say that the absence of Google (even a highly censored version) will (and have already) only make it worse. >Google literally building a blacklist Every single search engine or social media in China already has that. Yes, Google likely will build one for their services if they plan to enter China. But it's not like they come up, or "actively" help with this idea.
- gopi11 8y ago
  It's complicated because the real choice being made is masked. And when an org develops a habit of pushing people out who can see the moral dimension, it increases the number of decision makers within the org that don't. I know someone who resigned for similar Moral Reasons when we were working on a project for a foreign country. At the time, I am ashamed to say, lot of people laughed and attacked him for the reasons being "superficial". Exec Mgmt's position was - we are doing things conforming to the "local laws". The thing was, local laws existed in name only. You could get away with whatever you wanted by bribing people or helping the wrong kind of people. And once you have managers in place who have no problem with that what do you think happens? Fast forward 15 years and we saw massive fines and few people went to jail. This plays out constantly in companies.
  - fireattack 8y ago
    I agree with your point but it's not what I'm talking about. I was trying to say that from my (together with some other Chinese people's) perspective, it is "more moral" to re-enter China because it helps Chinese people to educate themselves better by giving a significant better search service. I don't see it as a way to help our gov. to suppress us. Quite the opposite, actually. Again, I respect our ideality or value difference. But I think I should voice my view on it.
    - j16sdiz 8y ago
      > ... because it helps Chinese people to educate themselves better... This was the idea years ago when we allowed it enter WTO. We were wrong on that. Now we are debating whether we should allow China export censorship?!

stri8ed 8y ago

Besides the implicit endorsement, does it really change anything on the ground? Existing search engines are already censored in China, and those that wish to bypass via VPN, can still do so after Google releases their censored version.

math_and_stuff 8y ago
My primary motivation is fighting these types of capitulations becoming precedents. If an American tech company will willfully aid the CCP in preventing information on human rights from spreading and build tools for a nationwide dragnet, what would they ever stand up for?
prepend 8y ago
This is such a weird argument when applied to other areas. “Does it really change anything on the ground? Someone else will make the ovens and gas chambers?” “Does it really change anything on the ground? Someone else will assassinate Archduke Ferdinand?” Etc. being morally opposed to something and trying to abstain from supporting it is not the same as campaigning against something’s existence. I wouldn’t work for a bomb company, but I’m not trying to shut down Lockheed Martin. There’s many different moral systems. Some people are trying to not make things worse. Others are doing different things. It’s ok that there are gradations.
- TACIXAT 8y ago
  I think your comparison to building gas chambers is hyperbolic and ridiculous.
  - jjeaff 8y ago
    So you are saying that China doesn't use their surveillance apparatus to find and murder political disedents?
  - the_duke 8y ago
    Well, China used to execute prisoners on demand if organ donations were needed. While not up there with the extermination of an entire religion, it is quite an impressive level of exploitation. They also imprison a large amount of people in re-education camps.
  - prepend 8y ago
    I agree with hyperbolic as was part of my intention. Sparking ww1 is also hyperbolic, I think. I don’t think it’s ridiculous as this feature by Goog, I think, will lead to many people having worse lives and dying. Providing equipment to totalitarian regimes is pretty bad in my book. China has used surveillance to execute political prisoners [0] in the past, so I think having better digital tools with better surveillance, logically, will lead to more executions and more oppression. While I do think more people died in ovens during the holocaust, I think the moral calculus is similar between an oven maker in 1936 and a dragonfly coder in 2019. [0] https://www.bmj.com/content/364/bmj.l596 https://www.bmj.com/content/364/bmj.l596
gowld 8y ago
All those employees count be doing something better if they cancel their authoritarian oppression project.
jumpman500 8y ago
It doesn't matter if it changes anything. It's about having principles and standing for something. We're a part of this world, and we have a duty to do the things we think are right. Not everything in life is a god damn utility maximization function. Sometimes you have to do the right thing because you want others to act the same way you do, and because it's wrong to build tools for future totalitarian rulers.

fireattack 8y ago

I don't get it. As a Chinese, I can say that the absence of Google (even a highly censored version) will (and have already) only make it worse. >Google literally building a blacklist Every single search engine or social media in China already has that. Yes, Google likely will build one for their services if they plan to enter China. But it's not like they come up, or "actively" help with this idea.

gopi11 8y ago
It's complicated because the real choice being made is masked. And when an org develops a habit of pushing people out who can see the moral dimension, it increases the number of decision makers within the org that don't. I know someone who resigned for similar Moral Reasons when we were working on a project for a foreign country. At the time, I am ashamed to say, lot of people laughed and attacked him for the reasons being "superficial". Exec Mgmt's position was - we are doing things conforming to the "local laws". The thing was, local laws existed in name only. You could get away with whatever you wanted by bribing people or helping the wrong kind of people. And once you have managers in place who have no problem with that what do you think happens? Fast forward 15 years and we saw massive fines and few people went to jail. This plays out constantly in companies.
- fireattack 8y ago
  I agree with your point but it's not what I'm talking about. I was trying to say that from my (together with some other Chinese people's) perspective, it is "more moral" to re-enter China because it helps Chinese people to educate themselves better by giving a significant better search service. I don't see it as a way to help our gov. to suppress us. Quite the opposite, actually. Again, I respect our ideality or value difference. But I think I should voice my view on it.
  - j16sdiz 8y ago
    > ... because it helps Chinese people to educate themselves better... This was the idea years ago when we allowed it enter WTO. We were wrong on that. Now we are debating whether we should allow China export censorship?!