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It's interesting how this sort of discussion is actually leading HN to be more of an echo chamber. Most of my female friends in tech completely avoid it now bec
by avivo 8y ago
It's interesting how this sort of discussion is actually leading HN to be more of an echo chamber. Most of my female friends in tech completely avoid it now because it seems that discussions that get voted up tend to ignore or belittle their experiences—even if there may be lots of great points and perspectives mixed in. In fact, the only response I noticed explicitly from someone who identified as female was being downvoted last I checked: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19306248 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19306248
That can feel rather insulting and demoralizing, and why would anyone want to subject themselves to that? Instead many women just avoid HN—which in turn means that it becomes more male dominated, with more upvotes and mindshare to comments about experiences of "the other" that may not by particularly well informed—because it's not worth the time of a woman to even chime in.
Regardless of your opinions on these specific issues, this dynamic of driving away women decreases the likelihood of everyone gaining a well informed perspective. It doesn't just impact gender issues. It impacts discussions on the importance and potential markets of startups that provide products which aren't just male focused. And you can end up with more things like: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/feb/23/truth-world-built-for-men-car-crashes https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/feb/23/truth-w...
Not an easy dynamic to "fix", but a useful thing to remember when thinking about communities, incentives, and impacts...
- Waterluvian 8y agoI've resigned to never talking during any discussion that has to do with any form of inequality. As a young, middle class, educated, employed, healthy white male, I'm perceived as the "default settings" of society. No groups are advocating for me because I apparently already have plenty of support. There's nothing I can do to celebrate who I am because the conversation is so zero-sum. If I'm a white guy making a lot of money in tech, I'm part of the problem. It's exhausting. Instead of being a booster for causes I think are important, I just stay on the sidelines. I wonder if all the upvoters are just quieter than the down voters.
- dragonwriter 8y ago> accurate opinions You can have an accurate or inaccurate belief on a question of fact, but “accuracy” is not a measure that applies to matters of opinion.
- avivo 8y agoWhoops. Good catch. Edited to make more sense.
- movedx 8y ago> Instead many women just avoid HN—which in turn means that it becomes more male dominated, with more upvotes and mindshare to comments about experiences of "the other" that may not by particularly well informed—because it's not worth the time of a woman to even chime in. So how do we solve this? How do we be more inclusive from day zero? Where does it all begin? I think you'll find these problems stem much earlier in a man's life when the education system helps teach them to be men and helps women be women in the traditional sense. We're all placed in boxes and told to be a certain way. So what do we do?
- tchaffee 8y agoDespite the article stating in the beginning that "company officials acknowledged that it did not address whether women were hired at a lower pay grade than men with similar qualifications." Completely ignored by everyone jumping to conclusions and yelling "told you so". Tech still has a problem with sexism. It's getting better. But you're right that women aren't debating and fighting those battles in forums like this where the most vocal are those who insist no problem exists.
- eecks 8y agoThis post screams "but what about the females?!" "Instead many women just avoid HN" - based on a couple of your friends? I am sure lots of people, regardless of gender, avoid HN for a variety of reasons. No one knows your gender on HN unless you tell them. There's no pictures or even real names to go by. Things get voted up based on merit.
- malvosenior 8y agoThis post is specifically about men being underpaid. Men are rightfully concerned and passionate about this issue. Here we have hard data showing men are being discriminated against and people are still asking how this will help women.
- vl 8y ago>Instead many women just avoid HN It seems like a ripe opportunity to create women-only HN.
- nvarsj 8y agoI agree completely. Many of the comments on this article are plain ugly. It’s a depressing revelation to me the state of HN on this topic.