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It is when we're talking about outcomes within a field. Either you think women deserve to be paid less or not — there isn't really a third possibility there. If
by chc 8y ago
It is when we're talking about outcomes within a field. Either you think women deserve to be paid less or not — there isn't really a third possibility there. If they do deserve worse outcomes, then either they suck innately or they suck because they're not interested, but either way you're saying they suck.
- leereeves 8y agoDon't try to put words in my mouth with that false dichotomy. If someone isn't interested in programming, they don't "suck" at it. They just don't do it.
- chc 8y agoI'm talking about outcomes for female programmers here. You're saying that female programmers don't program, and therefore they deserve to be paid less than male programmers, who presumably do program? Or what? Who are these female programmers who don't program that you're apparently so interested in talking about?
- stcredzero 8y agoYou're saying that female programmers don't program, and therefore they deserve to be paid less This is weird. That's not how I read what leereeves wrote at all. Yet you repeatedly insist that's what he's saying. Are you perhaps projecting an opinion onto leereeves? Preferences can very much influence the outcomes of a training pipeline for a field. (I say this as someone who taught a class attended by Chic Tech students.) That's just common sense.
- chc 8y agoI'm trying to get leereeves to actually explain what he means. What sort of difference do people think exists between men and women that makes them deserve to, for example, be paid less for the same work (i.e. worse outcome) without being worse at the job?
- leereeves 8y agoYou're asking me to explain something that may not even be true. According to the article, your scenario is not reality: > When Google conducted a study recently to determine whether the company was underpaying women and members of minority groups, it found, to the surprise of just about everyone, that men were paid less money than women for doing similar work. men were paid less money than women for doing similar work.
- haberman 8y agoWomen who achieve the same things as men deserve the same compensation. I don't think anyone on this thread disagrees with that. This article is about a comprehensive review of salaries at Google that concluded that overall, women who achieved the same job levels as men were being paid more. The opportunity vs. outcome question is applied to the question of representation. How many women should we expect to see at Google, across job levels, if the process for selecting and promoting people is fair?
- manfredo 8y agoMy room mate works fewer hours than me and doesn't have oncall rotations. He makes less money accordingly. Are you willing to walk up to his face and tell him that he "sucks" because he doesn't work as hard and doesn't have the same TC as I do? To be frank, your posts are pretty denigrating to people who choose to have better work life balance. Not everyone sees their self worth in terms of dollars.