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High school, college, any STEM fields are all overwhelmingly biased in terms of favoring women. My daughter who is finishing the primary school has recently as

High school, college, any STEM fields are all overwhelmingly biased in terms of favoring women. My daughter who is finishing the primary school has recently asked me if it's okay if she doesn't like math, but likes animals and babies. Sounds like some pressure is being applied...

nostromo 8y ago
Or maybe sexual differences cause men and women, on average, to have different interests. edit: thanks for pointing out that I misread which type of pressure is being applied.
- jlawson 8y ago
  That's what the poster meant. She was being pressured to like math; her inherent interest was in animals and babies.
  - ggggtez 8y ago
    Did you know that men sometimes like babies and animals too? Crazy I know. What is taught in 4th-5th grade math? Fractions? Decimals? Multiplication and division of larger numbers (maybe the accursed "Long Division")? These are not exactly the most exciting or interesting things to learn... If I was a parent of this child, I'd take it as a notice that they are falling behind, probably from lousy teaching and parenting. It's not going to get any better by ignoring the problem. They've got another 8+ years of school to go, they aren't even halfway done. You need to show them why they can find it interesting, the same way you would show a student who really loves math why reading/writing is important. Or why history matters... If you just assume a 10 year old can fully decide what their adult self likes/doesn't like and what they need to know, then you are failing as a parent.
    - bargl 8y ago
      Are you a parent? I ask because I remember saying stuff like this before I had kids. I don't anymore. I've tried to learn not to judge others parenting but hey that's just me. No one, at least that I've seen. Is saying men don't like babies and animals too. There is nothing wrong with that. To assume that you have to like something based on your gender is ignorant. To assume that you can't like what is "stereotypical" liked by your gender is equally ignorant. People have a massive amount of fluctuation in what they like and don't like, part of being a parent is about recognizing the individual that your kid is and not pressing what YOU want on them, but balancing that with what's best for them based on what you know that they don't. I also know that as a parent, you're always failing. You just do your best to fail as little as possible.
      - smileysteve 8y ago
        I don't think you're listening to the above poster very well; or giving them the benefit of the doubt. Boys are statistically over prescribed ADD medication in schools because, studies show, teachers are more likely to write them up for being a distraction to class. So, this thread says the daughter is being pushed to like math over animals, yet, you doubt that a son (there is no gender gap pre-high school in math, infact, females earn higher grades) is being pushed to study math over animals, recess, or babies. https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a32858/drugging-of-the-american-boy-0414/ https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a32858/drugging-of-the... https://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/women_and_math_the_gender_gap_bridged https://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/women_and_m...
        bargl 8y ago
        You are correct, my comment assumes more of a gender bias discussion from the OP then their words deserve. You are wrong in that my assertion about parenting and that the parent is the best fit to make that call. Their claim of "If I was a parent of this child..." Is exactly the kind of stuff I'd spout before I had children. And in your comment you completely disregard this point I'm making. So in a way, you aren't listening to my post very well, or giving me the benefit of the doubt. You don't address many of my points either, but dive right back into gender studies and ADD medication (over prescription of medication is a problem in our society in general). Final thought. >there is no gender gap pre-high school in math, infact, females earn higher grades That is a gender gap, just not one where males are on top. Edit: I'd also argue that trade schools are under-represented in our current education system, but that's kind of why I think it's up to the parent to make these calls rather than some person on the internet.
- cmonnow 8y ago
  you're assuming that men and women have sexual differences? it's 2019.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - Veelox 8y ago
    Unfortunately I can no longer tell is this statement is meant in jest or not.
fullshark 8y ago
In which direction?
- AlexTWithBeard 8y ago
  In "we-need-more-girls-in-science-club" one.
Will_Parker 8y ago
> Sounds like some pressure is being applied... Maybe, rightly so? It doesn't matter if you like reading, you need to learn it. For a toddler in 2019, I think coding and some math is getting close to this level of importance.
- rndgermandude 8y ago
  She didn't ask if she has to learn math at all, but if she has to like math.
- everdrive 8y ago
  I think this is a valid point, but a kid would have to be pretty aloof these days to not recognize the expectations being placed on them. I have memories as early as Kindergarten and Pre-K, where it was really clear that adults wanted us to know that boys weren't better than girls. (as a bit of an aside, I always wished at that time that people wouldn't push the issue. Bringing it to the forefront forced the topic, and one group of kids would "win" the argument at the expense of the other kids.)
- djsumdog 8y ago
  Pressured is applied to make people fit into the working machine. We're okay with our kids being farmed because we want them to have good money and as good or better a life than ourselves. My dad wanted to go into art school, but he went into engineering instead, got a visa and moved our entire family to the US. I wanted to go into journalism, but my sister kept telling me I needed to think about my future family, so I went into Computer Science (I'm also in my 30s with no family .. so, yea). How about instead of telling women they should go for higher paying jobs, we tell men it's okay to go after your dreams. How about we find a way to support artists so they're not selling everything under iTunes/Google/Amazon at a 30% cut! There is a much bigger problem here of people taking jobs they know they'll probably be unhappy with because they need the money. We are a factory pipeline of misery.
  - pas 8y ago
    > How about we find a way to support artists so they're not selling everything under iTunes/Google/Amazon at a 30% cut! > We are a factory pipeline of misery. yep, but even to address that, you need to learn math, reading, and critical thinking. and unfortunately our schools suck at all of them, and to change that you again need those.
dqpb 8y ago
I hope you told her that liking math is not a prerequisite to liking animals and babies. Surely these interests can be decoupled - unless she has some kind of socio-mathematical synesthesia.
- AlexTWithBeard 8y ago
  I love math. I tried to make her a mathematician. But nope. Doesn't work. At all. I'm still available if she changes her mind one day!
  - ggggtez 8y ago
    This is a mistake of the parent. You can't "make" them become something. That's why they hate it, not because of the school. You are forcing them to do it. I've seen this with people who are coders trying to force their kids to make websites (like they did when they were a kid). But guess what: maybe you did it because it was fun, but for her it's a chore because she didn't come up with the idea! If she likes animals, show her science about animals. The math will come into play naturally. You could ask her about how many babies certain animals have each year. Let her find the problems that interest her, and show her that math is a tool that can solve those problems.
    - smileysteve 8y ago
      This, I see burnout in college athletes because they didn't actually want to be good at their sport, but mom and dad made them.
analyst74 8y ago
This is the subtle part of social conditioning. It's not that boys will all like math either, but society makes sure they can't like animals and babies. Higher expectations of children (within reason) typically leads to higher achievement.
CyberDildonics 8y ago
It's too bad she has to ask what is ok to like.

nostromo 8y ago

Or maybe sexual differences cause men and women, on average, to have different interests. edit: thanks for pointing out that I misread which type of pressure is being applied.

jlawson 8y ago
That's what the poster meant. She was being pressured to like math; her inherent interest was in animals and babies.
- ggggtez 8y ago
  Did you know that men sometimes like babies and animals too? Crazy I know. What is taught in 4th-5th grade math? Fractions? Decimals? Multiplication and division of larger numbers (maybe the accursed "Long Division")? These are not exactly the most exciting or interesting things to learn... If I was a parent of this child, I'd take it as a notice that they are falling behind, probably from lousy teaching and parenting. It's not going to get any better by ignoring the problem. They've got another 8+ years of school to go, they aren't even halfway done. You need to show them why they can find it interesting, the same way you would show a student who really loves math why reading/writing is important. Or why history matters... If you just assume a 10 year old can fully decide what their adult self likes/doesn't like and what they need to know, then you are failing as a parent.
  - bargl 8y ago
    Are you a parent? I ask because I remember saying stuff like this before I had kids. I don't anymore. I've tried to learn not to judge others parenting but hey that's just me. No one, at least that I've seen. Is saying men don't like babies and animals too. There is nothing wrong with that. To assume that you have to like something based on your gender is ignorant. To assume that you can't like what is "stereotypical" liked by your gender is equally ignorant. People have a massive amount of fluctuation in what they like and don't like, part of being a parent is about recognizing the individual that your kid is and not pressing what YOU want on them, but balancing that with what's best for them based on what you know that they don't. I also know that as a parent, you're always failing. You just do your best to fail as little as possible.
    - smileysteve 8y ago
      I don't think you're listening to the above poster very well; or giving them the benefit of the doubt. Boys are statistically over prescribed ADD medication in schools because, studies show, teachers are more likely to write them up for being a distraction to class. So, this thread says the daughter is being pushed to like math over animals, yet, you doubt that a son (there is no gender gap pre-high school in math, infact, females earn higher grades) is being pushed to study math over animals, recess, or babies. https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a32858/drugging-of-the-american-boy-0414/ https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a32858/drugging-of-the... https://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/women_and_math_the_gender_gap_bridged https://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/women_and_m...
      - bargl 8y ago
        You are correct, my comment assumes more of a gender bias discussion from the OP then their words deserve. You are wrong in that my assertion about parenting and that the parent is the best fit to make that call. Their claim of "If I was a parent of this child..." Is exactly the kind of stuff I'd spout before I had children. And in your comment you completely disregard this point I'm making. So in a way, you aren't listening to my post very well, or giving me the benefit of the doubt. You don't address many of my points either, but dive right back into gender studies and ADD medication (over prescription of medication is a problem in our society in general). Final thought. >there is no gender gap pre-high school in math, infact, females earn higher grades That is a gender gap, just not one where males are on top. Edit: I'd also argue that trade schools are under-represented in our current education system, but that's kind of why I think it's up to the parent to make these calls rather than some person on the internet.
cmonnow 8y ago
you're assuming that men and women have sexual differences? it's 2019.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- Veelox 8y ago
  Unfortunately I can no longer tell is this statement is meant in jest or not.

fullshark 8y ago

In which direction?

AlexTWithBeard 8y ago
In "we-need-more-girls-in-science-club" one.

Will_Parker 8y ago

> Sounds like some pressure is being applied... Maybe, rightly so? It doesn't matter if you like reading, you need to learn it. For a toddler in 2019, I think coding and some math is getting close to this level of importance.

rndgermandude 8y ago
She didn't ask if she has to learn math at all, but if she has to like math.
everdrive 8y ago
I think this is a valid point, but a kid would have to be pretty aloof these days to not recognize the expectations being placed on them. I have memories as early as Kindergarten and Pre-K, where it was really clear that adults wanted us to know that boys weren't better than girls. (as a bit of an aside, I always wished at that time that people wouldn't push the issue. Bringing it to the forefront forced the topic, and one group of kids would "win" the argument at the expense of the other kids.)
djsumdog 8y ago
Pressured is applied to make people fit into the working machine. We're okay with our kids being farmed because we want them to have good money and as good or better a life than ourselves. My dad wanted to go into art school, but he went into engineering instead, got a visa and moved our entire family to the US. I wanted to go into journalism, but my sister kept telling me I needed to think about my future family, so I went into Computer Science (I'm also in my 30s with no family .. so, yea). How about instead of telling women they should go for higher paying jobs, we tell men it's okay to go after your dreams. How about we find a way to support artists so they're not selling everything under iTunes/Google/Amazon at a 30% cut! There is a much bigger problem here of people taking jobs they know they'll probably be unhappy with because they need the money. We are a factory pipeline of misery.
- pas 8y ago
  > How about we find a way to support artists so they're not selling everything under iTunes/Google/Amazon at a 30% cut! > We are a factory pipeline of misery. yep, but even to address that, you need to learn math, reading, and critical thinking. and unfortunately our schools suck at all of them, and to change that you again need those.

dqpb 8y ago

I hope you told her that liking math is not a prerequisite to liking animals and babies. Surely these interests can be decoupled - unless she has some kind of socio-mathematical synesthesia.

AlexTWithBeard 8y ago
I love math. I tried to make her a mathematician. But nope. Doesn't work. At all. I'm still available if she changes her mind one day!
- ggggtez 8y ago
  This is a mistake of the parent. You can't "make" them become something. That's why they hate it, not because of the school. You are forcing them to do it. I've seen this with people who are coders trying to force their kids to make websites (like they did when they were a kid). But guess what: maybe you did it because it was fun, but for her it's a chore because she didn't come up with the idea! If she likes animals, show her science about animals. The math will come into play naturally. You could ask her about how many babies certain animals have each year. Let her find the problems that interest her, and show her that math is a tool that can solve those problems.
  - smileysteve 8y ago
    This, I see burnout in college athletes because they didn't actually want to be good at their sport, but mom and dad made them.

analyst74 8y ago

This is the subtle part of social conditioning. It's not that boys will all like math either, but society makes sure they can't like animals and babies. Higher expectations of children (within reason) typically leads to higher achievement.

CyberDildonics 8y ago

It's too bad she has to ask what is ok to like.