5 ms·

It's not a contest of who is more underpaid. This would indicate that Google systematically underpays, regardless of gender. THAT is the real issue here.

sokoloff 8y ago
How likely is it possible for Google to systematically underpay? People voluntarily take positions there (and in fact, compete to get hired there).
- oarabbus_ 8y ago
  >People voluntarily take positions there (and in fact, compete to get hired there). I would say this makes it more likely for people to be underpaid, especially when factoring in hours worked. See SpaceX for another example.
  - sokoloff 8y ago
    Lots of people want to work in game development. Lots of people do. Some people say game devs are underpaid. I tend to think that they're paid what they agreed to accept and that is based in large part on market forces (supply and demand, value over replacement, etc.). I also left game development because it wasn't for me long-term. (I was underpaid relative to what I could make in another industry, but I wasn't underpaid by my game-dev company. They quickly hired a replacement for me, I'm sure.) A company like Google, paying substantially over minimum wage, is probably not underpaying most employees systematically, almost by definition IMO.
    - crooked-v 8y ago
      > I was underpaid relative to what I could make in another industry, but I wasn't underpaid by my game-dev company. If a company underpays all its employees equally, it's still underpaying. Companies that do this are taking advantage of how people are not rational actors.
      - sokoloff 8y ago
        What is the reference for underpaying? Supply and demand of willing free-will workers? Profitability of the company? Something else? Or what a Wall Street hedge fund can pay?
        crooked-v 8y ago
        In the context of video game companies, it's the comparison to other software companies and positions requiring about the same level of experience and prestige. Game producers are well-known at this point for recruiting naive grads and paying them peanuts compared to what they could get even just making CRUD web apps.
        sokoloff 8y ago
        It's likely that many charities underpay software developers, because the developers are working there voluntarily in part for the mission. Political campaigns have the same property in a lot of cases. So long as people want to express their preferences in where they work based on the content of the work, the mission of the organization, the laptops they issue, or any other set of criteria, I think it's fair game that those choices tip the supply/demand relationship in or away from their favor.
        crooked-v 8y ago
        I think a key difference here is that a greater awareness of market-rate salaries preemptively affect those "want to work on video games" decisions much more than working for a volunteer organization. Corporate organizations in general put a lot of effort and culture into suppressing open knowledge and comparisons of pay rates.
CydeWeys 8y ago
How can everyone be underpaid? Does that even make sense?
- oarabbus_ 8y ago
  Not literally everyone can be underpaid, but most people can be underpaid, with a very small percentage paid fairly (and a smaller percentage overpaid)
  - CydeWeys 8y ago
    This really feels like a separate issue.
    - oarabbus_ 8y ago
      So then what is the issue here. I'm hearing "no the issue is that the data was looked at wrong and they really do discriminate against women". Now I'm hearing that "it doesn't matter that there are significant numbers of both underpaid women and underpaid men" from you. I guess it's not very clear to me what you think the issue is here.
      - CydeWeys 8y ago
        Are you confusing me with someone else?
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
        oarabbus_ 8y ago
        I'm not sure, but you seem to be asking many questions in a pointed manner on this topic, while offering no answers or even interpretations of your own.
        CydeWeys 8y ago
crimsonalucard 8y ago
When Men are being discriminated its not a contest but when women are, it is?
- oarabbus_ 8y ago
  I'm not sure I understand if this is trying to imply I'm being sexist against men, or against women.
  - crimsonalucard 8y ago
    I'm not implying that you are purposely doing anything. You like most people on HN are not sexist. What is happening though is a flaw within our logical frameworks. Our cultural biases are making something evident. If more women are underpaid than men, then that it is obviously and overtly a form of sexism... logically this implicates that If more men are underpaid than women then it is also sexism. Instead of calling out the logical implication why do people jump to an illogical conclusion? The question is now, do women experience sexism in terms of compensation at google or do men? Or do neither? If the answer is neither than what does it mean when I see videos like this popping up all over my facebook feed? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pQ-fUXAeCI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pQ-fUXAeCI

sokoloff 8y ago

How likely is it possible for Google to systematically underpay? People voluntarily take positions there (and in fact, compete to get hired there).

oarabbus_ 8y ago
>People voluntarily take positions there (and in fact, compete to get hired there). I would say this makes it more likely for people to be underpaid, especially when factoring in hours worked. See SpaceX for another example.
- sokoloff 8y ago
  Lots of people want to work in game development. Lots of people do. Some people say game devs are underpaid. I tend to think that they're paid what they agreed to accept and that is based in large part on market forces (supply and demand, value over replacement, etc.). I also left game development because it wasn't for me long-term. (I was underpaid relative to what I could make in another industry, but I wasn't underpaid by my game-dev company. They quickly hired a replacement for me, I'm sure.) A company like Google, paying substantially over minimum wage, is probably not underpaying most employees systematically, almost by definition IMO.
  - crooked-v 8y ago
    > I was underpaid relative to what I could make in another industry, but I wasn't underpaid by my game-dev company. If a company underpays all its employees equally, it's still underpaying. Companies that do this are taking advantage of how people are not rational actors.
    - sokoloff 8y ago
      What is the reference for underpaying? Supply and demand of willing free-will workers? Profitability of the company? Something else? Or what a Wall Street hedge fund can pay?
      - crooked-v 8y ago
        In the context of video game companies, it's the comparison to other software companies and positions requiring about the same level of experience and prestige. Game producers are well-known at this point for recruiting naive grads and paying them peanuts compared to what they could get even just making CRUD web apps.
        sokoloff 8y ago
        It's likely that many charities underpay software developers, because the developers are working there voluntarily in part for the mission. Political campaigns have the same property in a lot of cases. So long as people want to express their preferences in where they work based on the content of the work, the mission of the organization, the laptops they issue, or any other set of criteria, I think it's fair game that those choices tip the supply/demand relationship in or away from their favor.
        crooked-v 8y ago
        I think a key difference here is that a greater awareness of market-rate salaries preemptively affect those "want to work on video games" decisions much more than working for a volunteer organization. Corporate organizations in general put a lot of effort and culture into suppressing open knowledge and comparisons of pay rates.

CydeWeys 8y ago

How can everyone be underpaid? Does that even make sense?

oarabbus_ 8y ago
Not literally everyone can be underpaid, but most people can be underpaid, with a very small percentage paid fairly (and a smaller percentage overpaid)
- CydeWeys 8y ago
  This really feels like a separate issue.
  - oarabbus_ 8y ago
    So then what is the issue here. I'm hearing "no the issue is that the data was looked at wrong and they really do discriminate against women". Now I'm hearing that "it doesn't matter that there are significant numbers of both underpaid women and underpaid men" from you. I guess it's not very clear to me what you think the issue is here.
    - CydeWeys 8y ago
      Are you confusing me with someone else?
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - oarabbus_ 8y ago
        I'm not sure, but you seem to be asking many questions in a pointed manner on this topic, while offering no answers or even interpretations of your own.
        CydeWeys 8y ago

crimsonalucard 8y ago

When Men are being discriminated its not a contest but when women are, it is?

oarabbus_ 8y ago
I'm not sure I understand if this is trying to imply I'm being sexist against men, or against women.
- crimsonalucard 8y ago
  I'm not implying that you are purposely doing anything. You like most people on HN are not sexist. What is happening though is a flaw within our logical frameworks. Our cultural biases are making something evident. If more women are underpaid than men, then that it is obviously and overtly a form of sexism... logically this implicates that If more men are underpaid than women then it is also sexism. Instead of calling out the logical implication why do people jump to an illogical conclusion? The question is now, do women experience sexism in terms of compensation at google or do men? Or do neither? If the answer is neither than what does it mean when I see videos like this popping up all over my facebook feed? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pQ-fUXAeCI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pQ-fUXAeCI