9 ms·

This may be an unpopular thought here but it seems to me that these momazonians may seriously consider unionizing. If executives at major tech companies are not

by Endama 8y ago

This may be an unpopular thought here but it seems to me that these momazonians may seriously consider unionizing. If executives at major tech companies are not willing to meet the needs of their female workforce (both current and future) then it seems that collective bargaining would be an effective means of making their position more convincing. The risk is that companies may increasingly try and avoid hiring more women in the future; but it could also be that employers, who want to seem more socially responsible, may take the financial hit and invest in the up-front-costs in order to get access to a larger labor pool.

ethan_robot 8y ago
This is a popular opinion, and in addition it is correct and good. If you're looking for a union the https://www.iww.org https://www.iww.org are a great place to start!
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- Pharmakon 8y ago
  A union with fewer that 6k members worldwide and an extreme ideology seems like an insane place to start actually, unless your goal is to turn people off unions.
  - memmcgee 8y ago
    The IWW's ideology is hardly extreme considering the prevailing ideology in the US. And the IWW is small, but their track record speaks for itself.
    - Pharmakon 8y ago
      What track record do they have in, lets be generous and say the last 50 years?
      - eesmith 8y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Workers_of_the_World#Return_to_workplace_campaigns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Workers_of_the_Worl... and onward?
        Pharmakon 8y ago
        That seems like a ton noise with very little, if anything to show for it. It still seems like the IWW is a weird place to start a search for unionization, or a model to follow.
        eesmith 8y ago
        I don't know what "noise" means in this context, especially as interpreted though the lens of Wikipedia where you are certainly reading through editor biases. You said the IWW has - as in the present day - "an extreme ideology". Where is your evidence?
      - memmcgee 8y ago
        What track record do ANY unions have in the last 50 years?
rebuilder 8y ago
The underlying assumption here is that women take care of kids, while men work. That's what an union should address IMO. Instead of maternal leave, have parental leave that men, too, can take. That way, the playing field is leveled more. Of course, there's no quick fix here - it's a deepset cultural issue, and getting men to take that leave when it's available to them still seems to take some pushing.
- lotsofpulp 8y ago
  In order to make it work, I think you would have to force men to take the parental leave, otherwise the implicit value of a man would still be higher. If the goal is to mitigate the consequences of giving birth and taking care of an infant, and the consequence is that women have less time for work, then you have to force men to also have less time for work.
  - thecopy 8y ago
    I don't know why this is being downvoted. It is certainly true in Sweden that while we have parental leave, men take a lot less, and the left wing parties are trying to create a law forcing men to take time off.
  - rebuilder 8y ago
    Yes, you probably need to push men into taking leave. Incentivizing may work better than trying to force them. For example, go a bit further than just having parental leave, and have some of that time be paternal leave that the mother can not take. You don't have to use it, but there's an incentive to. Of course that's not going to fully even the books. Men don't get pregnant. They're not going to breastfeed or recover from giving birth. But that doesn't mean that you can't make things better. Look at it from the perspective of the family: requiring women to bear the entire burden of childcare in terms of time off work puts a serious damper on their career prospects. By allowing and incentivizing the man in the family to also take time off for childcare, you improve the woman's chances at building a strong career. That should translate to higher income for the family.
49531 8y ago
Unions are also like macros for action. All the work that goes into organized action is streamlined when you do it permanently as a union. It makes little sense to stick your neck out, and then wait until something goes wrong again and having to do all of the legwork all over.
cma 8y ago
The government needs to mandate or fund it with taxes it so all companies are under the same burden.
camelNotation 8y ago
Major banks do a good job with this. They recognize that this is not just a matter of gender equality, but LGBT equality as well. They give equal parental leave to both sexes for both birth and adoption (for family bonding), which allows flexibility on how time off is handled in traditional male/female childbirths, but also in male/male and female/female adoptions/births as well. If companies like Amazon don't catch up soon, they're going to end up on the wrong end of some very serious PR attacks in the coming years.
- drawnwren 8y ago
  As someone who was adopted, this seems excessive. Unless someone is adopting a newborn, adoption carries a significantly different set of requirements than childbirth. Also, calling adoption birth for same sex couples is weird. My mother is my mother but in no world did she give birth to me.
  - camelNotation 8y ago
    It's not the same as birth, but it is the same as "we have a new child in our lives and we need time to bond and learn to live together" which is really what parental leave is all about. When my wife gives birth (I have a lot of kids), only the first couple weeks are really about recuperation from the birth itself. Most of that time together is about getting established in new routines. It's affording new families time to take their first steps as a family. That applies in both birth and adoption.
    - tomp 8y ago
      > "we need time to bond and learn to live together" which is really what parental leave is all about I haven't had kids yet, but from what I hear from people who have, that very much not what parental leave is all about, at least in the very begining. It's all about being required to take care for an extremely helpless and vulnerable being who likely needs focused attention every 3-6 hours! It's exhausting (in the same way as working on an intensive care unit is exhausting, even if you don't even want to bond!)

by Endama 8y ago

ethan_robot 8y ago

This is a popular opinion, and in addition it is correct and good. If you're looking for a union the https://www.iww.org https://www.iww.org are a great place to start!

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
Pharmakon 8y ago
A union with fewer that 6k members worldwide and an extreme ideology seems like an insane place to start actually, unless your goal is to turn people off unions.
- memmcgee 8y ago
  The IWW's ideology is hardly extreme considering the prevailing ideology in the US. And the IWW is small, but their track record speaks for itself.
  - Pharmakon 8y ago
    What track record do they have in, lets be generous and say the last 50 years?
    - eesmith 8y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Workers_of_the_World#Return_to_workplace_campaigns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Workers_of_the_Worl... and onward?
      - Pharmakon 8y ago
        That seems like a ton noise with very little, if anything to show for it. It still seems like the IWW is a weird place to start a search for unionization, or a model to follow.
        eesmith 8y ago
        I don't know what "noise" means in this context, especially as interpreted though the lens of Wikipedia where you are certainly reading through editor biases. You said the IWW has - as in the present day - "an extreme ideology". Where is your evidence?
    - memmcgee 8y ago
      What track record do ANY unions have in the last 50 years?

rebuilder 8y ago

The underlying assumption here is that women take care of kids, while men work. That's what an union should address IMO. Instead of maternal leave, have parental leave that men, too, can take. That way, the playing field is leveled more. Of course, there's no quick fix here - it's a deepset cultural issue, and getting men to take that leave when it's available to them still seems to take some pushing.

lotsofpulp 8y ago
In order to make it work, I think you would have to force men to take the parental leave, otherwise the implicit value of a man would still be higher. If the goal is to mitigate the consequences of giving birth and taking care of an infant, and the consequence is that women have less time for work, then you have to force men to also have less time for work.
- thecopy 8y ago
  I don't know why this is being downvoted. It is certainly true in Sweden that while we have parental leave, men take a lot less, and the left wing parties are trying to create a law forcing men to take time off.
- rebuilder 8y ago
  Yes, you probably need to push men into taking leave. Incentivizing may work better than trying to force them. For example, go a bit further than just having parental leave, and have some of that time be paternal leave that the mother can not take. You don't have to use it, but there's an incentive to. Of course that's not going to fully even the books. Men don't get pregnant. They're not going to breastfeed or recover from giving birth. But that doesn't mean that you can't make things better. Look at it from the perspective of the family: requiring women to bear the entire burden of childcare in terms of time off work puts a serious damper on their career prospects. By allowing and incentivizing the man in the family to also take time off for childcare, you improve the woman's chances at building a strong career. That should translate to higher income for the family.

49531 8y ago

Unions are also like macros for action. All the work that goes into organized action is streamlined when you do it permanently as a union. It makes little sense to stick your neck out, and then wait until something goes wrong again and having to do all of the legwork all over.

cma 8y ago

The government needs to mandate or fund it with taxes it so all companies are under the same burden.

camelNotation 8y ago

Major banks do a good job with this. They recognize that this is not just a matter of gender equality, but LGBT equality as well. They give equal parental leave to both sexes for both birth and adoption (for family bonding), which allows flexibility on how time off is handled in traditional male/female childbirths, but also in male/male and female/female adoptions/births as well. If companies like Amazon don't catch up soon, they're going to end up on the wrong end of some very serious PR attacks in the coming years.

drawnwren 8y ago
As someone who was adopted, this seems excessive. Unless someone is adopting a newborn, adoption carries a significantly different set of requirements than childbirth. Also, calling adoption birth for same sex couples is weird. My mother is my mother but in no world did she give birth to me.
- camelNotation 8y ago
  It's not the same as birth, but it is the same as "we have a new child in our lives and we need time to bond and learn to live together" which is really what parental leave is all about. When my wife gives birth (I have a lot of kids), only the first couple weeks are really about recuperation from the birth itself. Most of that time together is about getting established in new routines. It's affording new families time to take their first steps as a family. That applies in both birth and adoption.
  - tomp 8y ago
    > "we need time to bond and learn to live together" which is really what parental leave is all about I haven't had kids yet, but from what I hear from people who have, that very much not what parental leave is all about, at least in the very begining. It's all about being required to take care for an extremely helpless and vulnerable being who likely needs focused attention every 3-6 hours! It's exhausting (in the same way as working on an intensive care unit is exhausting, even if you don't even want to bond!)