3 ms·

It's a rebuke of the false trope of the purity of racial ancestry which has persisted in many human societies for centuries, occasionally manifesting in the for

by danans 8y ago

It's a rebuke of the false trope of the purity of racial ancestry which has persisted in many human societies for centuries, occasionally manifesting in the form of events like the Holocaust. Because that trope has sadly persisted to this day in some quarters, it's falsehood needs to be continually exposed, especially by sciences such as biological anthropology, which were once used to promulgate it.

mirimir 8y ago
Actually, it's my impression that some Jewish groups have done a pretty good job at maintaining racial purity. In some cases, leading to ~frequent homozygousity for some nasty recessive mutations. I don't know the specifics, but I've read that only certified Jews can officially marry in Israel. And the standards are so high that many "Jewish" immigrants don't qualify. Now that we have DNA testing, I wonder if that will become the standard.
- danans 8y ago
  > Actually, it's my impression that some Jewish groups have done a pretty good job at maintaining racial purity. Because certain very specific subgroups have done this doesn't mean that they are "pure". These in-marrying groups are always descended from mixed populations in the first place, populations that predate the identity badges we ascribe to them today. Tay Sachs, among the genetic diseases you alluded to, is also present in non Jewish populations, but at a lower rate: https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/non-jews-increasingly-hit-by-jewish-diseases-1.5319996 https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/non-jews-increasingly-hit-by-... > I don't know the specifics, but I've read that only certified Jews can officially marry in Israel. > And the standards are so high that many "Jewish" immigrants don't qualify. People can convert to Judaism, and even be born into Judaism with one Jewish parent. This is very common among populations outside of Israel. Large subgroups in Judaism, sephardi, baghdadi, etc, are genetically quite diverse in origin, and are significantly represented among the Israeli population.
  - mirimir 8y ago
    > People can convert to Judaism, and even be born into Judaism with one Jewish parent. This is very common among populations outside of Israel. Yes, but to strict orthodox, they're not really "Jewish". At one point, I researched rabbinical criteria for determining pedigree and classifying degree of Jewishness. Who can marry who, and how any children are classified. It's mind-boggling. If I have some time while this thread is hot, I'll post some sources. Edit: Here are some sources. Please note that they're Jewish sources. Not anti-Jewish sources. http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11977-pedigree http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11977-pedigree https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/4045946/jewish/Why-Cant-a-Convert-Marry-a-Kohen.htm https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/4045946/jewis... https://tikvahfund.org/uncategorized/intermarriage-can-anything-be-done/ https://tikvahfund.org/uncategorized/intermarriage-can-anyth... https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/marriage-in-judaism https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/marriage-in-judaism http://www.cohen-levi.org/jewish_genes_and_genealogy/the_dna_chain_of_tradition.htm http://www.cohen-levi.org/jewish_genes_and_genealogy/the_dna... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1288118/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1288118/
    - danans 8y ago
      > Yes, but to strict orthodox, they're not really "Jewish". Unless you are seeking to identify as "strict orthodox", why would it matter? The majority of Jewish groups are welcoming to people from the outside, if they achieve the required objectives in terms of religious and cultural fluency.
      - mirimir 8y ago
        I don't really care, now. But strict orthodox rules do apply in Israel. And that's not so insignificant. It's one reason why I'm in the US and not in Israel.
- justtopost 8y ago
  Indeed. Jews are literally racist by creed, yet it is often overlooked for reasons of diversity.
ng12 8y ago
I don't think it's a rebuke at all. The other side of the coin is to make sure you're the steppe tribes, not the hunter-gatherers. People who care about such things don't really care about purity, they care about winners and losers.
- danans 8y ago
  > The other side of the coin is to make sure you're the steppe tribes, not the hunter-gatherers. This doesn't follow from the researcher's statement at all. Just because the mechanism by which diversity happened thousands of years ago was often terrible doesn't mean we need to project that upon today, when we have much better mechanisms for genetic diversity, like immigration. We, as a human society, have improved just a bit.
  - ng12 8y ago
    > We, as a human society, have improved just a bit. I think it's debatable. The tribes are much bigger but really little has changed.
danans 8y ago
It's fascinating that my comment above rebuking racial purity theories is so controversial (evidenced by the oscillating down and up votes for a full day), yet there are no follow up comments supporting racial purity theory in general, just a discussion about the relative genetic isolation of one group? It's surprising that rebuking racial purity as a concept would be so controversial today on a forum like this.

by danans 8y ago

mirimir 8y ago

Actually, it's my impression that some Jewish groups have done a pretty good job at maintaining racial purity. In some cases, leading to ~frequent homozygousity for some nasty recessive mutations. I don't know the specifics, but I've read that only certified Jews can officially marry in Israel. And the standards are so high that many "Jewish" immigrants don't qualify. Now that we have DNA testing, I wonder if that will become the standard.

danans 8y ago
> Actually, it's my impression that some Jewish groups have done a pretty good job at maintaining racial purity. Because certain very specific subgroups have done this doesn't mean that they are "pure". These in-marrying groups are always descended from mixed populations in the first place, populations that predate the identity badges we ascribe to them today. Tay Sachs, among the genetic diseases you alluded to, is also present in non Jewish populations, but at a lower rate: https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/non-jews-increasingly-hit-by-jewish-diseases-1.5319996 https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/non-jews-increasingly-hit-by-... > I don't know the specifics, but I've read that only certified Jews can officially marry in Israel. > And the standards are so high that many "Jewish" immigrants don't qualify. People can convert to Judaism, and even be born into Judaism with one Jewish parent. This is very common among populations outside of Israel. Large subgroups in Judaism, sephardi, baghdadi, etc, are genetically quite diverse in origin, and are significantly represented among the Israeli population.
- mirimir 8y ago
  > People can convert to Judaism, and even be born into Judaism with one Jewish parent. This is very common among populations outside of Israel. Yes, but to strict orthodox, they're not really "Jewish". At one point, I researched rabbinical criteria for determining pedigree and classifying degree of Jewishness. Who can marry who, and how any children are classified. It's mind-boggling. If I have some time while this thread is hot, I'll post some sources. Edit: Here are some sources. Please note that they're Jewish sources. Not anti-Jewish sources. http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11977-pedigree http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11977-pedigree https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/4045946/jewish/Why-Cant-a-Convert-Marry-a-Kohen.htm https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/4045946/jewis... https://tikvahfund.org/uncategorized/intermarriage-can-anything-be-done/ https://tikvahfund.org/uncategorized/intermarriage-can-anyth... https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/marriage-in-judaism https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/marriage-in-judaism http://www.cohen-levi.org/jewish_genes_and_genealogy/the_dna_chain_of_tradition.htm http://www.cohen-levi.org/jewish_genes_and_genealogy/the_dna... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1288118/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1288118/
  - danans 8y ago
    > Yes, but to strict orthodox, they're not really "Jewish". Unless you are seeking to identify as "strict orthodox", why would it matter? The majority of Jewish groups are welcoming to people from the outside, if they achieve the required objectives in terms of religious and cultural fluency.
    - mirimir 8y ago
      I don't really care, now. But strict orthodox rules do apply in Israel. And that's not so insignificant. It's one reason why I'm in the US and not in Israel.
justtopost 8y ago
Indeed. Jews are literally racist by creed, yet it is often overlooked for reasons of diversity.

ng12 8y ago

I don't think it's a rebuke at all. The other side of the coin is to make sure you're the steppe tribes, not the hunter-gatherers. People who care about such things don't really care about purity, they care about winners and losers.

danans 8y ago
> The other side of the coin is to make sure you're the steppe tribes, not the hunter-gatherers. This doesn't follow from the researcher's statement at all. Just because the mechanism by which diversity happened thousands of years ago was often terrible doesn't mean we need to project that upon today, when we have much better mechanisms for genetic diversity, like immigration. We, as a human society, have improved just a bit.
- ng12 8y ago
  > We, as a human society, have improved just a bit. I think it's debatable. The tribes are much bigger but really little has changed.

danans 8y ago

It's fascinating that my comment above rebuking racial purity theories is so controversial (evidenced by the oscillating down and up votes for a full day), yet there are no follow up comments supporting racial purity theory in general, just a discussion about the relative genetic isolation of one group? It's surprising that rebuking racial purity as a concept would be so controversial today on a forum like this.