4 ms·

The average Chinese today would not agree with you. Tell them about American democracy: they see Trump and a mess of irrational, petty infighting. Tell them abo

The average Chinese today would not agree with you. Tell them about American democracy: they see Trump and a mess of irrational, petty infighting. Tell them about European democracy: they see Brexit and a perpetual stall in economic development. Now look to China’s leadership: while they may lack the freedoms of Western societies, the trade off has been such an incredible increase in quality of life that people born in 1990 to abject poverty can be living in solidly middle-class conditions nowadays (I know many such folks personally!). The Chinese people as a whole are only going to agitate for democratic reform when (or if) their system of government stops serving them. Maybe a poor leader will emerge and shock the country into realizing they’ve centralized too much power; maybe the level of corruption will begin to significantly impede growth; maybe a rise in fortunes will make people yearn for freedoms they don’t have.

est31 8y ago
> maybe a rise in fortunes will make people yearn for freedoms they don’t have. Actually this is a big thing already now as rich chinese people invest in western properties that the Chinese government can't seize. If you are rich in an authoritarian country, all of your wealth can vanish quickly if you fall out of favour of the people who rule. This doesn't even have to be your own contribution, they can just say they take it. If you are rich in a western democracy, nothing much can happen to you.
themacguffinman 8y ago
They may see it that way but I'd argue it's a pretty myopic view. The US and the EU do most things better despite their political issues. Only focusing on their flaws is like rejecting free cash because some of the notes are dirty.
- house_atr 8y ago
  That's all you do though is focus on flaws and obnoxiously repeat a meaningless mantra of democracy and human rights and freedom. You haven't defined them nor proven you are the sole proprietor. You just want to spread your monoculture through war and sanctions and soft power and constant bitching.
erikpukinskis 8y ago
> Maybe a poor leader... maybe the level of corruption... maybe a rise in fortunes will make people yearn for freedoms Or all of the above. The History of China is long and history loves change, and China will most likely see each of these narratives in future.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
FartyMcFarter 8y ago
Yes, the "first derivative" of their quality of life is impressive. The quality of life itself is not, when compared to many places in America / Europe (pollution being perhaps the biggest problem, even if you don't care about human rights / political rights). So "the average Chinese" that you mentioned would be missing the forest for the trees, if they do think that way.
- xvilka 8y ago
  Pollution problem is being solved at incredible pace. Probably in 5 more years the environment will be better than US. Consider for example, how much new trees being planted across the country and in big cities.
chillacy 8y ago
"It doesn't matter if a cat is black or white so long as it catches mice" Democracy has a critical feature: it has a built-in method of nonviolent political succession which has been the norm in other regimes which don't plan for change (resulting in revolution, coup d'etats, etc). There will inevitably come a time where this is a useful feature again, and hopefully they manage to graft it in before it's too late.

est31 8y ago

> maybe a rise in fortunes will make people yearn for freedoms they don’t have. Actually this is a big thing already now as rich chinese people invest in western properties that the Chinese government can't seize. If you are rich in an authoritarian country, all of your wealth can vanish quickly if you fall out of favour of the people who rule. This doesn't even have to be your own contribution, they can just say they take it. If you are rich in a western democracy, nothing much can happen to you.

themacguffinman 8y ago

They may see it that way but I'd argue it's a pretty myopic view. The US and the EU do most things better despite their political issues. Only focusing on their flaws is like rejecting free cash because some of the notes are dirty.

house_atr 8y ago
That's all you do though is focus on flaws and obnoxiously repeat a meaningless mantra of democracy and human rights and freedom. You haven't defined them nor proven you are the sole proprietor. You just want to spread your monoculture through war and sanctions and soft power and constant bitching.

erikpukinskis 8y ago

> Maybe a poor leader... maybe the level of corruption... maybe a rise in fortunes will make people yearn for freedoms Or all of the above. The History of China is long and history loves change, and China will most likely see each of these narratives in future.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

FartyMcFarter 8y ago

Yes, the "first derivative" of their quality of life is impressive. The quality of life itself is not, when compared to many places in America / Europe (pollution being perhaps the biggest problem, even if you don't care about human rights / political rights). So "the average Chinese" that you mentioned would be missing the forest for the trees, if they do think that way.

xvilka 8y ago
Pollution problem is being solved at incredible pace. Probably in 5 more years the environment will be better than US. Consider for example, how much new trees being planted across the country and in big cities.

chillacy 8y ago

"It doesn't matter if a cat is black or white so long as it catches mice" Democracy has a critical feature: it has a built-in method of nonviolent political succession which has been the norm in other regimes which don't plan for change (resulting in revolution, coup d'etats, etc). There will inevitably come a time where this is a useful feature again, and hopefully they manage to graft it in before it's too late.