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marnett 8y ago
I believe GP is mostly talking about the standard American propaganda that without Capitalism no great things can be accomplished.
- vxNsr 8y ago
  Is still true. If china hadn't moved to a quasi capitalist society they would still be making rice and no one outside of a few chinese political dissidents would know anything about shenzhen
  - hexane360 8y ago
    I'm not sure China can be described as "quasi-capitalist". There's very close cooperation between industry and government in a way that's antithetical to capitalism. Sure, at the lower levels it functions as a market economy, but the corporations themselves are heavily influenced if not controlled by the state.
  - Theodores 8y ago
    I think that you are conflating 'capitalism' with 'market economy'. Moving away from a 'centrally planned' economy doesn't imply 'capitalism', you can have a 'market economy'. The original definition of a 'free market' was different to how 'the capitalists' use the words today. Originally a 'free market' was free from rent seekers, usury and monopolies. You put your work in and you got your pay and your profits. This was the definition of a free and fair economy. Nowadays the interpretation of 'free market' in the West implies freedom for the rent-seeking class to exploit people with freedom for them to move their capital to tax havens. Centrally planned economies had a problem with corrupt officials. The corrupt officials would take the role of the rent-seeking parasites we know in Western capitalist societies. Modern China has a leadership that does not tolerate corrupt officials. If you are a corrupt official then you can expect the gallows in China, it is as harsh as that. There is also Confucius and a deeper cultural work ethic that makes the Communist experiment with Mao a mere blip in the bigger canvas of Chinese history. The rise of China is not because they have gone 'quasi-capitalist' it is because they have moved to a 'market economy' instead of a fully centrally planned economy. They have not allowed or desired their empire to be run by the whims of finance capital. Chinese people have collectively worked a lot harder than people in America. It is easy for those left behind in America to trot out tired nonsense, e.g. about how the Chinese steal all of 'our' IP or Chinese political dissidents, without acknowledging that the Chinese people and leadership have worked really hard to transform the country out of poverty to be extremely educated and leading the world. This complacency only serves to leave America behind. Given your lack of punctuation and grammar I wonder if you might be stuck behind too.
    - maxxxxx 8y ago
      A lot of people seem to confuse "capitalism" with "market economy". Once capitalists have established their position they hate market competition.
      - Theodores 8y ago
        Too true and concisely put. The actual word 'competition' did not mean winner takes it all in the Ancient Greek flavour of the word, it has also been newspeaked by Capitalism. Originally there was some honour to competition. See also where the word 'agony' comes from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agon
      - erik_seaberg 8y ago
        The market decides how much to produce, capitalism scales up the best producers. Producers want monopolies but somehow we need to keep a flow of promising new producers launching so that doesn't happen, because it screws up the market (the monopolist produces less and takes more for it).
        nicoburns 8y ago
        Or we could regulate the market to not allow monopolies (and break up large businesses). We have laws for this, they're just not enforced.
        erik_seaberg 8y ago
        The race is kind of pointless if we're just going to shoot the winners.
    - sien 8y ago
      China is pretty corrupt. It's still a pretty big problem there. https://www.forbes.com/sites/ralphjennings/2018/03/15/corruption-in-china-gets-stuck-half-way-between-the-worlds-best-and-worst/#22516fe973d1 https://www.forbes.com/sites/ralphjennings/2018/03/15/corrup...
  - Synaesthesia 8y ago
    The fact is, as David Graeber observed, every country has a mix of capitalist and socialist aspects. Taking a loose definition of “socialism” as helping each other. (To each what he requires, from each what he can provide) Without such impulses society would quickly fall apart. China can be characterized as a state capitalist society with quite a high degree of control and abuses, but some degree responsibility to its citizens too.

I believe GP is mostly talking about the standard American propaganda that without Capitalism no great things can be accomplished.

vxNsr 8y ago
Is still true. If china hadn't moved to a quasi capitalist society they would still be making rice and no one outside of a few chinese political dissidents would know anything about shenzhen
- hexane360 8y ago
  I'm not sure China can be described as "quasi-capitalist". There's very close cooperation between industry and government in a way that's antithetical to capitalism. Sure, at the lower levels it functions as a market economy, but the corporations themselves are heavily influenced if not controlled by the state.
- Theodores 8y ago
  I think that you are conflating 'capitalism' with 'market economy'. Moving away from a 'centrally planned' economy doesn't imply 'capitalism', you can have a 'market economy'. The original definition of a 'free market' was different to how 'the capitalists' use the words today. Originally a 'free market' was free from rent seekers, usury and monopolies. You put your work in and you got your pay and your profits. This was the definition of a free and fair economy. Nowadays the interpretation of 'free market' in the West implies freedom for the rent-seeking class to exploit people with freedom for them to move their capital to tax havens. Centrally planned economies had a problem with corrupt officials. The corrupt officials would take the role of the rent-seeking parasites we know in Western capitalist societies. Modern China has a leadership that does not tolerate corrupt officials. If you are a corrupt official then you can expect the gallows in China, it is as harsh as that. There is also Confucius and a deeper cultural work ethic that makes the Communist experiment with Mao a mere blip in the bigger canvas of Chinese history. The rise of China is not because they have gone 'quasi-capitalist' it is because they have moved to a 'market economy' instead of a fully centrally planned economy. They have not allowed or desired their empire to be run by the whims of finance capital. Chinese people have collectively worked a lot harder than people in America. It is easy for those left behind in America to trot out tired nonsense, e.g. about how the Chinese steal all of 'our' IP or Chinese political dissidents, without acknowledging that the Chinese people and leadership have worked really hard to transform the country out of poverty to be extremely educated and leading the world. This complacency only serves to leave America behind. Given your lack of punctuation and grammar I wonder if you might be stuck behind too.
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    A lot of people seem to confuse "capitalism" with "market economy". Once capitalists have established their position they hate market competition.
    - Theodores 8y ago
      Too true and concisely put. The actual word 'competition' did not mean winner takes it all in the Ancient Greek flavour of the word, it has also been newspeaked by Capitalism. Originally there was some honour to competition. See also where the word 'agony' comes from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agon
    - erik_seaberg 8y ago
      The market decides how much to produce, capitalism scales up the best producers. Producers want monopolies but somehow we need to keep a flow of promising new producers launching so that doesn't happen, because it screws up the market (the monopolist produces less and takes more for it).
      - nicoburns 8y ago
        Or we could regulate the market to not allow monopolies (and break up large businesses). We have laws for this, they're just not enforced.
        erik_seaberg 8y ago
        The race is kind of pointless if we're just going to shoot the winners.
  - sien 8y ago
    China is pretty corrupt. It's still a pretty big problem there. https://www.forbes.com/sites/ralphjennings/2018/03/15/corruption-in-china-gets-stuck-half-way-between-the-worlds-best-and-worst/#22516fe973d1 https://www.forbes.com/sites/ralphjennings/2018/03/15/corrup...
- Synaesthesia 8y ago
  The fact is, as David Graeber observed, every country has a mix of capitalist and socialist aspects. Taking a loose definition of “socialism” as helping each other. (To each what he requires, from each what he can provide) Without such impulses society would quickly fall apart. China can be characterized as a state capitalist society with quite a high degree of control and abuses, but some degree responsibility to its citizens too.