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This type of thinking is exactly why I stay away from the developer communities of Rust and Julia. Both communities seem to have this weird perception that thei

by mlthoughts2018 8y ago

This type of thinking is exactly why I stay away from the developer communities of Rust and Julia. Both communities seem to have this weird perception that their respective language categorically supersedes other tools in all use cases. Don’t get me wrong. Rust and Julia are very cool languages with a lot of use cases where they are great choices. But the communities come off as disproportionately full of zealots, which makes me less interested to put effort into yoking real projects to either of those communities.

futureastronaut 8y ago
Did you mean to reply to another comment? Because you're not addressing parent's point about the sordid history of non-memory safe codebases. Replying to everybody who replied to your comment is pointless if you don't take the time to read and process the replies.
- mlthoughts2018 8y ago
  I did not mean to reply to a different comment. I did address the parent's point by explaining that the premise of the point (the claim that no piece of C/C++ code is ever safe) should be categorically rejected and not engaged with. > "Replying to everybody who replied to your comment is pointless if you don't take the time to read and process the replies." This feels like you are being needlessly antagonistic and assuming incorrectly that I failed to read other comments or replies. If you did not understand the manner in which my comment was responding to the parent, that's fine, but it was and I don't appreciate your tone.
Ygg2 8y ago
For what is worth, I'm not a Rust dev. I did wrote some code in Rust, but by that definition I'm also a Fantom dev. I've just seen too many memory exploits in C/C++ to consider statements like "you can achieve memory safety in C/C++ if you're a True Scotsman" as anything other as logical fallacies.
- mlthoughts2018 8y ago
  > "I've just seen too many memory exploits in C/C++ to consider statements like "you can achieve memory safety in C/C++ if you're a True Scotsman" as anything other as logical fallacies." The problem is that for each person who offers your anecdata, there's another person who offers the antithetical anecdata. For example, in my experience with two very large defense lab projects written in C and C++ spanning the 80s to the early 00s, both projects had exceptionally nice tooling to prevent memory issues, and it was pleasant to work with the code. Debugging time was usually spent on application logic bugs and very rarely, if ever, spent on memory leaks, segfaults, corrupt data, alignment issues, etc. While I know this isn't directly applicable to Rust, I have also worked in a separate codebase that was a huge Haskell project and it was a nightmare of spaghetti code, performance bugs that were impossible to reason about, some segfaults, and it was extremely painful to descend into unsafe code for the occasional situations when it was required. Having the compiler to help us and leveraging the type system as part of the application design didn't really offer any significant benefits. This doesn't prove anything except that, like usual, it's situation-specific and depends on relevant trade-offs at hand. It almost never has anything to do with the generic types of safety guarantees that a framework or language allows you to formally verify.
catach 8y ago
As someone who does not stay away from the Rust community, my experience is that r/Rust is persistently inclusive when it comes to other languages: https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/a1ffb4/should_i_learn_c_or_rust_for_game_engine/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/a1ffb4/should_i_learn... https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/acpidm/should_i_start_lowlevel_programming_with_rust_or/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/acpidm/should_i_start... https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/afk6mi/starting_a_new_commercial_desktop_project_rust_vs/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/afk6mi/starting_a_new... https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/arndm5/does_rust_work_as_a_first_language/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/arndm5/does_rust_work... https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/an11l9/webdevelopement_rust_vs_haskell/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/an11l9/webdevelopemen... https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/6pg4y8/learning_rust_as_first_language/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/6pg4y8/learning_rust_... https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/777spr/would_you_recommend_learning_rust_to_someone_who/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/777spr/would_you_reco... https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/70ajv1/im_getting_into_compsci_now_should_i_be_looking/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/70ajv1/im_getting_int... https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/arhuv8/i_feel_like_rust_should_be_taken_seriously_as_a/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/arhuv8/i_feel_like_ru...

futureastronaut 8y ago

Did you mean to reply to another comment? Because you're not addressing parent's point about the sordid history of non-memory safe codebases. Replying to everybody who replied to your comment is pointless if you don't take the time to read and process the replies.

mlthoughts2018 8y ago
I did not mean to reply to a different comment. I did address the parent's point by explaining that the premise of the point (the claim that no piece of C/C++ code is ever safe) should be categorically rejected and not engaged with. > "Replying to everybody who replied to your comment is pointless if you don't take the time to read and process the replies." This feels like you are being needlessly antagonistic and assuming incorrectly that I failed to read other comments or replies. If you did not understand the manner in which my comment was responding to the parent, that's fine, but it was and I don't appreciate your tone.

Ygg2 8y ago

For what is worth, I'm not a Rust dev. I did wrote some code in Rust, but by that definition I'm also a Fantom dev. I've just seen too many memory exploits in C/C++ to consider statements like "you can achieve memory safety in C/C++ if you're a True Scotsman" as anything other as logical fallacies.

mlthoughts2018 8y ago
> "I've just seen too many memory exploits in C/C++ to consider statements like "you can achieve memory safety in C/C++ if you're a True Scotsman" as anything other as logical fallacies." The problem is that for each person who offers your anecdata, there's another person who offers the antithetical anecdata. For example, in my experience with two very large defense lab projects written in C and C++ spanning the 80s to the early 00s, both projects had exceptionally nice tooling to prevent memory issues, and it was pleasant to work with the code. Debugging time was usually spent on application logic bugs and very rarely, if ever, spent on memory leaks, segfaults, corrupt data, alignment issues, etc. While I know this isn't directly applicable to Rust, I have also worked in a separate codebase that was a huge Haskell project and it was a nightmare of spaghetti code, performance bugs that were impossible to reason about, some segfaults, and it was extremely painful to descend into unsafe code for the occasional situations when it was required. Having the compiler to help us and leveraging the type system as part of the application design didn't really offer any significant benefits. This doesn't prove anything except that, like usual, it's situation-specific and depends on relevant trade-offs at hand. It almost never has anything to do with the generic types of safety guarantees that a framework or language allows you to formally verify.

catach 8y ago

As someone who does not stay away from the Rust community, my experience is that r/Rust is persistently inclusive when it comes to other languages: https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/a1ffb4/should_i_learn_c_or_rust_for_game_engine/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/a1ffb4/should_i_learn... https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/acpidm/should_i_start_lowlevel_programming_with_rust_or/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/acpidm/should_i_start... https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/afk6mi/starting_a_new_commercial_desktop_project_rust_vs/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/afk6mi/starting_a_new... https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/arndm5/does_rust_work_as_a_first_language/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/arndm5/does_rust_work... https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/an11l9/webdevelopement_rust_vs_haskell/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/an11l9/webdevelopemen... https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/6pg4y8/learning_rust_as_first_language/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/6pg4y8/learning_rust_... https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/777spr/would_you_recommend_learning_rust_to_someone_who/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/777spr/would_you_reco... https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/70ajv1/im_getting_into_compsci_now_should_i_be_looking/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/70ajv1/im_getting_int... https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/arhuv8/i_feel_like_rust_should_be_taken_seriously_as_a/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/arhuv8/i_feel_like_ru...