4 ms·

I didn’t know what this was, so I checked (https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/taxation/vat/vat-digital-services-moss-scheme/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/yo

I didn’t know what this was, so I checked (https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/taxation/vat/vat-digital-services-moss-scheme/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/taxation/vat/vat-digit...). Long story short: MOSS stands for “mini one stop shop” and looks explicitely designed to make it easier to sell across the EU. > The Mini One-Stop-Shop (MOSS Scheme) enables you to supply digital services within the EU without the need to register in each EU country you supply to. It can be used by both EU-based businesses and non-EU businesses. Honestly from reading the quick description of the law, if I was a business I would definitely try to take advantage of the law instead of registering in different countries for the single purposes of paying VAT. I get that some payment actors allow you to do that easily, while others don’t (yet), and yes this would be a criterion in choosing a payment gateway. But apart from that, I don’t really see how this law is evil, or an illustration that Eurocrats don’t know anything about business (there are plenty of other examples, but this isn’t one). Can you explain in which way the MOSS is “horrible”?

sbacic 8y ago
I can sell services domestically up to a limit of about 40,000 euros before I need to register and account for VAT. If I make even a single EU sale, I must immediately register for VAT and pay tax on that sale, either through MOSS or directly to the country my customer is in. The EU is now "generously" considering introducing a limit of 10,000 euros before you need to register for VAT. I also need to disagree with the parent poster - the rules for what is and is not a digital service are relatively clear - but not clear enough that your local tax officials understand it, apparently. I've had situation where my local tax agency incorrectly interpreted that my services (freelance software development) could be construed as being digital services and thus could fall under this scheme. Due to this and various other reasons, I am considering emigrating from Europe - some back of the napkin calculations show that I could live a comfortable middle to upper middle class lifestyle in other parts of the world just on the tax difference.
- AnssiH 8y ago
  > The EU is now "generously" considering introducing a limit of 10,000 euros before you need to register for VAT. No, that limit was passed in 2017 and took effect for digital services in January 2019: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:32017L2455 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:32... I.e. if your cross-border EU sales of digital services are less than 10 000 €, you can consider the sales domestic.
  - sbacic 8y ago
    Thanks for mentioning that! I remember reading that it was being discussed, but not that it had already been implemented. It's not much, but still better than nothing.
throwaway_9168 8y ago
The fine print around who actually needs to pay. A very simple example - say you sell online courses. Should you register for VAT?
- laurentl 8y ago
  Well the page on MOSS lists “distance teaching” as falling under the definition of digital services. So I guess the answer is yes?
  - throwaway_9168 8y ago
    Alright, thank you. Now, if I were to earn, say a total of $1000 [please feel free to substitute this with a more trivial number, however you may define trivial] for the whole year on online courses sold to EU residents (considering its a side gig, not too shabby), should I still register?
    - Nimitz14 8y ago
      No https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/selling-in-eu/selling-goods-services/provide-services-abroad/index_en.htm#rules-annual-turnovers https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/selling-in-eu/selling-...
      - throwaway_9168 8y ago
        In a way, you have just proved my bigger point about the lack of clarity surrounding these laws. The law didn't even talk about the Euro 10000 exception when it was first introduced [1]. No one knew what to make of it for a good year or two [2]. That is to say, if you did make 5000 Euros in 2018, too bad, you have to register for VAT MOSS (with all the associated costs in terms of time and money exactly when your fledgling business is at its most vulnerable). There are some certified tax people online claiming this doesn't even apply if you are selling to the UK [3]. So should I make an exception only for the UK? By the way, no one outside of the Eurozone actually cares whether UK is a part of the Euro, and why should they? If the very definition of what is considered a EU country is in a flux, are you then also going to ask people to be informed of all the political wrangling in various countries and all the associated timelines? Its a bit hilarious that you think others are whining. I don't have the reference link, but I distinctly remember seeing a top ranked HN'er from the EU whining and whining about the folks who were suggesting cutting off access to their website for the entire Euro bloc because they didn't want to deal with GDPR compliance. Which, from the viewpoint of someone who has a website which doesn't even cater to the Eurozone, makes sense doesn't it? You cannot have your cake and also eat it. Do you think EU has a special internet? Then accept that you will get special (and not always good) treatment. Or if you just want to be an internet freeloader sucking up bandwidth, then shut up and stop whining if people decide to cut you off because of all your insane rules because you (i.e. the Eurocrats) obviously don't have the same skin in the game that others do. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19296087 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19296087 [2] https://help.thinkific.com/support/discussions/topics/314716 https://help.thinkific.com/support/discussions/topics/314716 (see top comment by Catherine) [3] https://www.justanswer.co.uk/tax/c274z-question-concerns-vat-around-digital-access.html https://www.justanswer.co.uk/tax/c274z-question-concerns-vat... (see the last answer)

sbacic 8y ago

I can sell services domestically up to a limit of about 40,000 euros before I need to register and account for VAT. If I make even a single EU sale, I must immediately register for VAT and pay tax on that sale, either through MOSS or directly to the country my customer is in. The EU is now "generously" considering introducing a limit of 10,000 euros before you need to register for VAT. I also need to disagree with the parent poster - the rules for what is and is not a digital service are relatively clear - but not clear enough that your local tax officials understand it, apparently. I've had situation where my local tax agency incorrectly interpreted that my services (freelance software development) could be construed as being digital services and thus could fall under this scheme. Due to this and various other reasons, I am considering emigrating from Europe - some back of the napkin calculations show that I could live a comfortable middle to upper middle class lifestyle in other parts of the world just on the tax difference.

AnssiH 8y ago
> The EU is now "generously" considering introducing a limit of 10,000 euros before you need to register for VAT. No, that limit was passed in 2017 and took effect for digital services in January 2019: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:32017L2455 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:32... I.e. if your cross-border EU sales of digital services are less than 10 000 €, you can consider the sales domestic.
- sbacic 8y ago
  Thanks for mentioning that! I remember reading that it was being discussed, but not that it had already been implemented. It's not much, but still better than nothing.

throwaway_9168 8y ago

The fine print around who actually needs to pay. A very simple example - say you sell online courses. Should you register for VAT?

laurentl 8y ago
Well the page on MOSS lists “distance teaching” as falling under the definition of digital services. So I guess the answer is yes?
- throwaway_9168 8y ago
  Alright, thank you. Now, if I were to earn, say a total of $1000 [please feel free to substitute this with a more trivial number, however you may define trivial] for the whole year on online courses sold to EU residents (considering its a side gig, not too shabby), should I still register?
  - Nimitz14 8y ago
    No https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/selling-in-eu/selling-goods-services/provide-services-abroad/index_en.htm#rules-annual-turnovers https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/selling-in-eu/selling-...
    - throwaway_9168 8y ago
      In a way, you have just proved my bigger point about the lack of clarity surrounding these laws. The law didn't even talk about the Euro 10000 exception when it was first introduced [1]. No one knew what to make of it for a good year or two [2]. That is to say, if you did make 5000 Euros in 2018, too bad, you have to register for VAT MOSS (with all the associated costs in terms of time and money exactly when your fledgling business is at its most vulnerable). There are some certified tax people online claiming this doesn't even apply if you are selling to the UK [3]. So should I make an exception only for the UK? By the way, no one outside of the Eurozone actually cares whether UK is a part of the Euro, and why should they? If the very definition of what is considered a EU country is in a flux, are you then also going to ask people to be informed of all the political wrangling in various countries and all the associated timelines? Its a bit hilarious that you think others are whining. I don't have the reference link, but I distinctly remember seeing a top ranked HN'er from the EU whining and whining about the folks who were suggesting cutting off access to their website for the entire Euro bloc because they didn't want to deal with GDPR compliance. Which, from the viewpoint of someone who has a website which doesn't even cater to the Eurozone, makes sense doesn't it? You cannot have your cake and also eat it. Do you think EU has a special internet? Then accept that you will get special (and not always good) treatment. Or if you just want to be an internet freeloader sucking up bandwidth, then shut up and stop whining if people decide to cut you off because of all your insane rules because you (i.e. the Eurocrats) obviously don't have the same skin in the game that others do. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19296087 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19296087 [2] https://help.thinkific.com/support/discussions/topics/314716 https://help.thinkific.com/support/discussions/topics/314716 (see top comment by Catherine) [3] https://www.justanswer.co.uk/tax/c274z-question-concerns-vat-around-digital-access.html https://www.justanswer.co.uk/tax/c274z-question-concerns-vat... (see the last answer)