4 ms·

Looking at salary data from several places, even a $200k base seems pretty rare, most developers are not making that much in the bay area. People in the bay are

Looking at salary data from several places, even a $200k base seems pretty rare, most developers are not making that much in the bay area. People in the bay area are going to have less purchasing power than developers in most other places around the country.

nostrademons 8y ago
$3690/month * 12 months = $44280. If you're making ($44280 - current rent in your city) more for a SF job, you net out ahead, even without considering stock options. (It's also significantly more reasonable in the South Bay - my family pays about $2650/month for a 2BR, and most of the fat Facebook/Apple/Netflix/Google salaries are in Silicon Valley proper.)
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- ericd 8y ago
  I'd definitely keep in mind that those are after-tax figures, though. At the higher income levels, CA+Federal taxes hover around 50%. So, roughly double that rent difference to get the salary offset needed.
  - wankerrific 8y ago
    Really? At what income level in California are you paying half your income in taxes?
    - jjjensen90 8y ago
      From what I've seen I think it's around 38-40% state+federal when you reach about $200-300k then about 50% by $1m annual income... Might be better or worse this year with the new tax bill, not sure.
      - speedplane 8y ago
        > Might be better or worse this year with the new tax bill, not sure. Much better for those who can arguably restructure their salary as business income (e.g., real estate developers, some contractors), then they only get a 15% tax. Far worse for those who cant make that argument and live in high tax states like NY, CA, and many others.
    - closeparen 8y ago
      When comparing alternatives you want to look at marginal rate. Above $82k, your marginal tax rate is: 24% federal income + 6.3% social security + 1.45% medicare + 9.3% California + 1.5% San Francisco for a total of 43%. This is not the same thing as paying half your income in taxes, but it is paying (nearly) half the additional income in taxes.
      - lotsofpulp 8y ago
        6.2% social security drops off after $132,900. https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc751 https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc751 50% is a high estimate, good for budgeting though. With property taxes, vehicle registration fees (aka taxes), school fundraising (aka taxes), tolls (also tax), health insurance (a tax if it’s mandatory), and other fees for dealing with government, you get pretty close to 50%. The only way to beat this is to make a significant portion of your income via capital gains, that’s one big advantage of the real estate business, various loopholes exist to let you minimize taxes (like 1031 exchanges) on increases in your net worth.
      - dmode 8y ago
        What’s the 1.5% SF tax here ? Never heard of it. Isn’t SSN and Medicare only apply to 100k of income ? Also, you have deductions for mortgage, state taxes, property taxes that lower your tax liability quite a bit. I would be surprised if anyone paid more than 30% effective tax rate on their income
    - ericd 8y ago
      Sorry, I meant marginal tax rate, since we’re looking at the diff. At the $300k level, that’s around 35% Federal, and 11.3% CA. CA also has a relatively high 9% sales tax, and I believe SF proper has some special taxes as well.
- AnthonyMouse 8y ago
  That's if you only consider the housing cost. But if housing costs more then so does everything else, because everyone providing everything else has to pay the housing cost too, both for commercial real estate and higher costs per employee. Then you have the tax implications, i.e. all the extra money required should be calculated as after-tax at your marginal tax rate, both federal and state, and California has the highest income tax rate in the nation.
  - nostrademons 8y ago
    "But if housing costs more then so does everything else" That's not really true. Restaurants are more expensive in the Bay Area. Fresh produce is not, if you know where to shop - actually, when I go basically anywhere else in the world, one of the things I miss is the ability to fill a whole shopping bag with 10-15 lbs. of vegetables for < $10. Gas is more expensive, largely because of taxes. Cars are not. Durable goods cost the same as everywhere else. Amazon charges the same (modulo taxes) regardless of where you live. Airline tickets don't have appreciable differences. Baby things (modulo housing and childcare) are cheaper, because the Bay Area is dense enough and tech savvy enough that you can get a lot of toys/cribs/strollers/mats/gates/playthings for free or cheap on NextDoor/Craigslist. A dollar of savings is the same in SF as in Alabama. The point about tax rates is true for rentals. You can do the math yourself on whatever offer you happen to get - figure on housing in SF being ~$40K/year, meals out costing about $20/person, grocery food being about the same, public transportation being a few dollars a trip, and gas being negligible because you'd have to be pretty crazy to want to drive (and park) in SF.
    - closeparen 8y ago
      A dollar of savings is not the same, because your savings needs are proportional to housing costs. Whether it is to make a down payment, pay rent while laid off, or maintain your lifestyle in retirement, you need a much larger savings balance to buy the same capability. Even if it’s a kid’s college fund, as an upper middle income worker in a flyover state you will probably qualify for financial aid; even with the same take home budget, in a high wage high cost scenario you will not.
- deleted 8y ago
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nostrademons 8y ago

$3690/month * 12 months = $44280. If you're making ($44280 - current rent in your city) more for a SF job, you net out ahead, even without considering stock options. (It's also significantly more reasonable in the South Bay - my family pays about $2650/month for a 2BR, and most of the fat Facebook/Apple/Netflix/Google salaries are in Silicon Valley proper.)

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
ericd 8y ago
I'd definitely keep in mind that those are after-tax figures, though. At the higher income levels, CA+Federal taxes hover around 50%. So, roughly double that rent difference to get the salary offset needed.
- wankerrific 8y ago
  Really? At what income level in California are you paying half your income in taxes?
  - jjjensen90 8y ago
    From what I've seen I think it's around 38-40% state+federal when you reach about $200-300k then about 50% by $1m annual income... Might be better or worse this year with the new tax bill, not sure.
    - speedplane 8y ago
      > Might be better or worse this year with the new tax bill, not sure. Much better for those who can arguably restructure their salary as business income (e.g., real estate developers, some contractors), then they only get a 15% tax. Far worse for those who cant make that argument and live in high tax states like NY, CA, and many others.
  - closeparen 8y ago
    When comparing alternatives you want to look at marginal rate. Above $82k, your marginal tax rate is: 24% federal income + 6.3% social security + 1.45% medicare + 9.3% California + 1.5% San Francisco for a total of 43%. This is not the same thing as paying half your income in taxes, but it is paying (nearly) half the additional income in taxes.
    - lotsofpulp 8y ago
      6.2% social security drops off after $132,900. https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc751 https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc751 50% is a high estimate, good for budgeting though. With property taxes, vehicle registration fees (aka taxes), school fundraising (aka taxes), tolls (also tax), health insurance (a tax if it’s mandatory), and other fees for dealing with government, you get pretty close to 50%. The only way to beat this is to make a significant portion of your income via capital gains, that’s one big advantage of the real estate business, various loopholes exist to let you minimize taxes (like 1031 exchanges) on increases in your net worth.
    - dmode 8y ago
      What’s the 1.5% SF tax here ? Never heard of it. Isn’t SSN and Medicare only apply to 100k of income ? Also, you have deductions for mortgage, state taxes, property taxes that lower your tax liability quite a bit. I would be surprised if anyone paid more than 30% effective tax rate on their income
  - ericd 8y ago
    Sorry, I meant marginal tax rate, since we’re looking at the diff. At the $300k level, that’s around 35% Federal, and 11.3% CA. CA also has a relatively high 9% sales tax, and I believe SF proper has some special taxes as well.
AnthonyMouse 8y ago
That's if you only consider the housing cost. But if housing costs more then so does everything else, because everyone providing everything else has to pay the housing cost too, both for commercial real estate and higher costs per employee. Then you have the tax implications, i.e. all the extra money required should be calculated as after-tax at your marginal tax rate, both federal and state, and California has the highest income tax rate in the nation.
- nostrademons 8y ago
  "But if housing costs more then so does everything else" That's not really true. Restaurants are more expensive in the Bay Area. Fresh produce is not, if you know where to shop - actually, when I go basically anywhere else in the world, one of the things I miss is the ability to fill a whole shopping bag with 10-15 lbs. of vegetables for < $10. Gas is more expensive, largely because of taxes. Cars are not. Durable goods cost the same as everywhere else. Amazon charges the same (modulo taxes) regardless of where you live. Airline tickets don't have appreciable differences. Baby things (modulo housing and childcare) are cheaper, because the Bay Area is dense enough and tech savvy enough that you can get a lot of toys/cribs/strollers/mats/gates/playthings for free or cheap on NextDoor/Craigslist. A dollar of savings is the same in SF as in Alabama. The point about tax rates is true for rentals. You can do the math yourself on whatever offer you happen to get - figure on housing in SF being ~$40K/year, meals out costing about $20/person, grocery food being about the same, public transportation being a few dollars a trip, and gas being negligible because you'd have to be pretty crazy to want to drive (and park) in SF.
  - closeparen 8y ago
    A dollar of savings is not the same, because your savings needs are proportional to housing costs. Whether it is to make a down payment, pay rent while laid off, or maintain your lifestyle in retirement, you need a much larger savings balance to buy the same capability. Even if it’s a kid’s college fund, as an upper middle income worker in a flyover state you will probably qualify for financial aid; even with the same take home budget, in a high wage high cost scenario you will not.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]