4 ms·

Why "just scoff"? There's a salary that would allow you to live comfortably and get more net income in the Bay Area - you'd want to see if the jobs can pay that

Why "just scoff"? There's a salary that would allow you to live comfortably and get more net income in the Bay Area - you'd want to see if the jobs can pay that salary

Cyclone_ 8y ago
Looking at salary data from several places, even a $200k base seems pretty rare, most developers are not making that much in the bay area. People in the bay area are going to have less purchasing power than developers in most other places around the country.
- nostrademons 8y ago
  $3690/month * 12 months = $44280. If you're making ($44280 - current rent in your city) more for a SF job, you net out ahead, even without considering stock options. (It's also significantly more reasonable in the South Bay - my family pays about $2650/month for a 2BR, and most of the fat Facebook/Apple/Netflix/Google salaries are in Silicon Valley proper.)
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - ericd 8y ago
    I'd definitely keep in mind that those are after-tax figures, though. At the higher income levels, CA+Federal taxes hover around 50%. So, roughly double that rent difference to get the salary offset needed.
    - wankerrific 8y ago
      Really? At what income level in California are you paying half your income in taxes?
      - jjjensen90 8y ago
        From what I've seen I think it's around 38-40% state+federal when you reach about $200-300k then about 50% by $1m annual income... Might be better or worse this year with the new tax bill, not sure.
        speedplane 8y ago
        > Might be better or worse this year with the new tax bill, not sure. Much better for those who can arguably restructure their salary as business income (e.g., real estate developers, some contractors), then they only get a 15% tax. Far worse for those who cant make that argument and live in high tax states like NY, CA, and many others.
      - closeparen 8y ago
        When comparing alternatives you want to look at marginal rate. Above $82k, your marginal tax rate is: 24% federal income + 6.3% social security + 1.45% medicare + 9.3% California + 1.5% San Francisco for a total of 43%. This is not the same thing as paying half your income in taxes, but it is paying (nearly) half the additional income in taxes.
        lotsofpulp 8y ago
        6.2% social security drops off after $132,900. https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc751 https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc751 50% is a high estimate, good for budgeting though. With property taxes, vehicle registration fees (aka taxes), school fundraising (aka taxes), tolls (also tax), health insurance (a tax if it’s mandatory), and other fees for dealing with government, you get pretty close to 50%. The only way to beat this is to make a significant portion of your income via capital gains, that’s one big advantage of the real estate business, various loopholes exist to let you minimize taxes (like 1031 exchanges) on increases in your net worth.
        dmode 8y ago
        What’s the 1.5% SF tax here ? Never heard of it. Isn’t SSN and Medicare only apply to 100k of income ? Also, you have deductions for mortgage, state taxes, property taxes that lower your tax liability quite a bit. I would be surprised if anyone paid more than 30% effective tax rate on their income
  - AnthonyMouse 8y ago
    That's if you only consider the housing cost. But if housing costs more then so does everything else, because everyone providing everything else has to pay the housing cost too, both for commercial real estate and higher costs per employee. Then you have the tax implications, i.e. all the extra money required should be calculated as after-tax at your marginal tax rate, both federal and state, and California has the highest income tax rate in the nation.
    - nostrademons 8y ago
      "But if housing costs more then so does everything else" That's not really true. Restaurants are more expensive in the Bay Area. Fresh produce is not, if you know where to shop - actually, when I go basically anywhere else in the world, one of the things I miss is the ability to fill a whole shopping bag with 10-15 lbs. of vegetables for < $10. Gas is more expensive, largely because of taxes. Cars are not. Durable goods cost the same as everywhere else. Amazon charges the same (modulo taxes) regardless of where you live. Airline tickets don't have appreciable differences. Baby things (modulo housing and childcare) are cheaper, because the Bay Area is dense enough and tech savvy enough that you can get a lot of toys/cribs/strollers/mats/gates/playthings for free or cheap on NextDoor/Craigslist. A dollar of savings is the same in SF as in Alabama. The point about tax rates is true for rentals. You can do the math yourself on whatever offer you happen to get - figure on housing in SF being ~$40K/year, meals out costing about $20/person, grocery food being about the same, public transportation being a few dollars a trip, and gas being negligible because you'd have to be pretty crazy to want to drive (and park) in SF.
      - closeparen 8y ago
        A dollar of savings is not the same, because your savings needs are proportional to housing costs. Whether it is to make a down payment, pay rent while laid off, or maintain your lifestyle in retirement, you need a much larger savings balance to buy the same capability. Even if it’s a kid’s college fund, as an upper middle income worker in a flyover state you will probably qualify for financial aid; even with the same take home budget, in a high wage high cost scenario you will not.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
towaway1138 8y ago
Because I've done my research. I generally quote salary requirements in terms of living in a modest house in a pretty good school district, on a single salary (since my wife wants to stay at home and raise the kids). Not surprisingly, this makes recruiter jaws drop. We're not even on the same page. In most parts of the country, though, those requirements work just fine.
- modwilliam 8y ago
  Do you mind saying what your requirement is or the general range?
  - towaway1138 8y ago
    My most serious foray was around 2012, and back then such a house seemed to go for $800K. Given the mortgage ratios, that corresponds to a PI payment of around $3800/mo. Kind of hard to match this to current offerings, but it looks like maybe $1.3M now, so theoretically $6200/mo. So maybe $100-120K/y in mortgage payments? Not sure. Can't recall the specifics, but my offer from a FAANG back then was a bit over $200K gross. But a lot of that isn't really liquid cash that you could use to pay the mortgage. It doesn't really fly. These days, for the scenario above, even $300K/y cash seems marginal. And AFAIK, no one in the BA would seriously consider offering me that. Lest someone complain that I seem entitled, let me say that I in no way consider that I somehow deserve such an offer. But at the same time, no BA employer deserves someone like me when I can get equivalent comp elsewhere. IMO, the way BA comp works is you engage in raids for five to ten years when you're in your late 20s or early 30s. Live in squalor, three or five roommates, and bank it all. Do not marry. Then take your winnings back to the real world and retire, or at least, live an easy life. But if you want a traditional life, thar be dragons...
    - modwilliam 8y ago
      Fair enough. Looks well thought out!

Why "just scoff"? There's a salary that would allow you to live comfortably and get more net income in the Bay Area - you'd want to see if the jobs can pay that salary

Cyclone_ 8y ago

Looking at salary data from several places, even a $200k base seems pretty rare, most developers are not making that much in the bay area. People in the bay area are going to have less purchasing power than developers in most other places around the country.

nostrademons 8y ago
$3690/month * 12 months = $44280. If you're making ($44280 - current rent in your city) more for a SF job, you net out ahead, even without considering stock options. (It's also significantly more reasonable in the South Bay - my family pays about $2650/month for a 2BR, and most of the fat Facebook/Apple/Netflix/Google salaries are in Silicon Valley proper.)
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- ericd 8y ago
  I'd definitely keep in mind that those are after-tax figures, though. At the higher income levels, CA+Federal taxes hover around 50%. So, roughly double that rent difference to get the salary offset needed.
  - wankerrific 8y ago
    Really? At what income level in California are you paying half your income in taxes?
    - jjjensen90 8y ago
      From what I've seen I think it's around 38-40% state+federal when you reach about $200-300k then about 50% by $1m annual income... Might be better or worse this year with the new tax bill, not sure.
      - speedplane 8y ago
        > Might be better or worse this year with the new tax bill, not sure. Much better for those who can arguably restructure their salary as business income (e.g., real estate developers, some contractors), then they only get a 15% tax. Far worse for those who cant make that argument and live in high tax states like NY, CA, and many others.
    - closeparen 8y ago
      When comparing alternatives you want to look at marginal rate. Above $82k, your marginal tax rate is: 24% federal income + 6.3% social security + 1.45% medicare + 9.3% California + 1.5% San Francisco for a total of 43%. This is not the same thing as paying half your income in taxes, but it is paying (nearly) half the additional income in taxes.
      - lotsofpulp 8y ago
        6.2% social security drops off after $132,900. https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc751 https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc751 50% is a high estimate, good for budgeting though. With property taxes, vehicle registration fees (aka taxes), school fundraising (aka taxes), tolls (also tax), health insurance (a tax if it’s mandatory), and other fees for dealing with government, you get pretty close to 50%. The only way to beat this is to make a significant portion of your income via capital gains, that’s one big advantage of the real estate business, various loopholes exist to let you minimize taxes (like 1031 exchanges) on increases in your net worth.
      - dmode 8y ago
        What’s the 1.5% SF tax here ? Never heard of it. Isn’t SSN and Medicare only apply to 100k of income ? Also, you have deductions for mortgage, state taxes, property taxes that lower your tax liability quite a bit. I would be surprised if anyone paid more than 30% effective tax rate on their income
- AnthonyMouse 8y ago
  That's if you only consider the housing cost. But if housing costs more then so does everything else, because everyone providing everything else has to pay the housing cost too, both for commercial real estate and higher costs per employee. Then you have the tax implications, i.e. all the extra money required should be calculated as after-tax at your marginal tax rate, both federal and state, and California has the highest income tax rate in the nation.
  - nostrademons 8y ago
    "But if housing costs more then so does everything else" That's not really true. Restaurants are more expensive in the Bay Area. Fresh produce is not, if you know where to shop - actually, when I go basically anywhere else in the world, one of the things I miss is the ability to fill a whole shopping bag with 10-15 lbs. of vegetables for < $10. Gas is more expensive, largely because of taxes. Cars are not. Durable goods cost the same as everywhere else. Amazon charges the same (modulo taxes) regardless of where you live. Airline tickets don't have appreciable differences. Baby things (modulo housing and childcare) are cheaper, because the Bay Area is dense enough and tech savvy enough that you can get a lot of toys/cribs/strollers/mats/gates/playthings for free or cheap on NextDoor/Craigslist. A dollar of savings is the same in SF as in Alabama. The point about tax rates is true for rentals. You can do the math yourself on whatever offer you happen to get - figure on housing in SF being ~$40K/year, meals out costing about $20/person, grocery food being about the same, public transportation being a few dollars a trip, and gas being negligible because you'd have to be pretty crazy to want to drive (and park) in SF.
    - closeparen 8y ago
      A dollar of savings is not the same, because your savings needs are proportional to housing costs. Whether it is to make a down payment, pay rent while laid off, or maintain your lifestyle in retirement, you need a much larger savings balance to buy the same capability. Even if it’s a kid’s college fund, as an upper middle income worker in a flyover state you will probably qualify for financial aid; even with the same take home budget, in a high wage high cost scenario you will not.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

towaway1138 8y ago

Because I've done my research. I generally quote salary requirements in terms of living in a modest house in a pretty good school district, on a single salary (since my wife wants to stay at home and raise the kids). Not surprisingly, this makes recruiter jaws drop. We're not even on the same page. In most parts of the country, though, those requirements work just fine.

modwilliam 8y ago
Do you mind saying what your requirement is or the general range?
- towaway1138 8y ago
  My most serious foray was around 2012, and back then such a house seemed to go for $800K. Given the mortgage ratios, that corresponds to a PI payment of around $3800/mo. Kind of hard to match this to current offerings, but it looks like maybe $1.3M now, so theoretically $6200/mo. So maybe $100-120K/y in mortgage payments? Not sure. Can't recall the specifics, but my offer from a FAANG back then was a bit over $200K gross. But a lot of that isn't really liquid cash that you could use to pay the mortgage. It doesn't really fly. These days, for the scenario above, even $300K/y cash seems marginal. And AFAIK, no one in the BA would seriously consider offering me that. Lest someone complain that I seem entitled, let me say that I in no way consider that I somehow deserve such an offer. But at the same time, no BA employer deserves someone like me when I can get equivalent comp elsewhere. IMO, the way BA comp works is you engage in raids for five to ten years when you're in your late 20s or early 30s. Live in squalor, three or five roommates, and bank it all. Do not marry. Then take your winnings back to the real world and retire, or at least, live an easy life. But if you want a traditional life, thar be dragons...
  - modwilliam 8y ago
    Fair enough. Looks well thought out!