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I do think that this is worth noting, however, I still think Google should not be hosting it as it's still facilitating an immoral action (running an oppressive

I do think that this is worth noting, however, I still think Google should not be hosting it as it's still facilitating an immoral action (running an oppressive government that doesn't respect freedom of movement). I guess it's kind of a deontologist/consequentialist thing.

vilifiedtwin 8y ago
If you are going that path then why not tell Google stop hosting other immoral project like news apps that publish pro war on drugs stories and misinformation about the drugs, preventing people from making informed decisions and causing deaths indirectly? That's more serious than women's tracking app.
- apostacy 8y ago
  No, I think that offensive opinions are an order of magnitude LESS serious than a women's tracking app. Are you serious? Publishing misinformation about drugs is more serious than the handmaiden app?
  - vilifiedtwin 8y ago
    Misinformation about drugs causes death. Yes that is serious.
apostacy 8y ago
Saudi Arabia only freed their African slaves in 1962. What if a new king re-enslaved them? I guess Google would be fine with hosting slave auction apps then, by this logic. I am so disgusted with the den of cowards and hypocrites at Google. Supercilious Google developers would condescend to us with platitudes of "Black lives matter" while literally hosting an enslavement app. It really would happen that way. Google would censor someone who makes fun of feminism with extreme prejudice, but will not lift a finger for this actual handmaiden app. They removed the Gab app at the drop of a hat because they claim to be against white supremacy, but they tacitly endorse the far more dangerous Chinese ethnostate to round up minorities into actual camps. The Chinese government forces Uyghurs in some regions to install apks on their android phones, and Google will NOT interfere, even though it would be easy to blacklist them. Maybe it would be ineffective, but it would be doing something. I don't want to hear that cooperating with oppression is somehow for the greater good. This is not who we are. There are actual people who are suffering as a direct result of Google's refusal to take a stand about who uses their platform. They are clearly willing to remove apps that displease them for arbitrary reasons, so they have no excuse not to act.
- joshuamorton 8y ago
  I'd encourage you to read this tweet[0] and this article[1]. They provide perspectives from Saudi women. To do my best to summarize: Indeed, the app is bad. That it exists or needs to exist is a bad thing. But given the Saudi government and Saudi law, the opinion of many women in Saudi Arabia is that scrapping the app would hurt their agency, not help it. They need male approval to travel either way, and by making it easier to get, the app, in practice, gives women more agency by lowering the bureaucratic barriers to travel. The best way I can put it is that the app here doesn't really particularly help the oppressors. Like maybe, in a contrived way, you can argue that by making the oppression lighter weight you're less likely to have a full on revolution or something. But then, you've still lessened the oppression. That's not a bad thing. But if removing the app from the store makes the experience of women in Saudi Arabia worse, which is exactly what many of those women are saying, then removing it doesn't do anything. You're just asking to have the Saudi society regress even further to a position where in practice women had even less agency. Is that better? [0]: https://twitter.com/monaeltahawy/status/1095360734798721025 https://twitter.com/monaeltahawy/status/1095360734798721025 an [1]: http://time.com/5532221/absher-saudi-arabia-what-to-know/ http://time.com/5532221/absher-saudi-arabia-what-to-know/
  - apostacy 8y ago
    I think that American corporations should not facilitate evil. You might be 100% right, I certainly don't know the perspectives of Saudi women, but I will take your word for it. But if Google resisting evil means that the Saudi government punishes Saudi women, then that is the fault of the Saudi government. Should Google accede to every despotic government that threatens its people? I wrote in a previous comment about how Google does nothing to prevent China from using its technology to put innocent people in camps. Perhaps China will be even more brutal if Google tries to thwart them. But I still think Google has an obligation not to cooperate. I sympathize with what you are saying. And if I were a woman in Saudi Arabia, I would probably not want the app banned too.
    - joshuamorton 8y ago
      How is loosening the restriction on freedom of movement for women evil? That's what this app does. I'm also confused by the china comparison. I'm not aware of any google tech China is using to oppress, but even if that is true, your China example is technology causing more oppression. This is the opposite. The technology reduces the oppression. You're presenting a very weird moral arfument. If you thought that not supporting this app would accelerate the fall of the Saudi regime, I'd say you're naive, but ok. But you're not saying that, you're saying that American companies shouldn't work with groups you don't like, even when the result is objectively good, because, for lack of a better term, virtue signalling. Why?
pgeorgi 8y ago
> it's still facilitating an immoral action (running an oppressive government that doesn't respect freedom of movement) In that case, Google and Apple should completely withdraw from Saudi Arabia: no iPhones, no appstore, no AdSense, ... Any of these lead to tax revenue which facilitates running that oppressive government. That's not what people are demanding though: they want some inconsequential app removed to demonstrate that they can coerce big tech companies to do their bidding. The icing on the cake is that they essentially work with strategies straight from the "fake news" handbook, by making it sound as if the app provides a new means of control ("government app which lets men track women and control their travel", straight from the title of the linked article). Even more annoying to me is that one of these campaigners is D-CA representative Jackie Speier who promotes herself on Twitter (https://twitter.com/repspeier https://twitter.com/repspeier) as "Fearless Fighter for women’s equality, LGBTQ rights & the disenfranchised." Given that women who demand equality, LGBTQ folks and the disenfranchised (e.g. Filipino immigrants) still have to fear for their lives in Saudi Arabia, where's the house bill to setup a full blown embargo until human rights are universally respected? _That_ would be fearless. Demanding removal of that app? That's merely flexing their muscles in a US domestic political battle. Human rights don't deserve to be abused like that.
- apostacy 8y ago
  > In that case, Google and Apple should completely withdraw from Saudi Arabia: no iPhones, no appstore, no AdSense, ... Any of these lead to tax revenue which facilitates running that oppressive government. > That's not what people are demanding though: they want some inconsequential app removed to demonstrate that they can coerce big tech companies to do their bidding. Actually, I kind of am demanding that they not do business with oppressive regimes. You make it sounds like some huge sacrifice. It is not. And it would give them a shred of moral credibility. Or, on the other hand, if Google must do business with Saudi Arabia, I expect them to shut up and never again speak of virtue again. I expect them to let neo-nazi apps trend on the front page of their app store. Because they have no moral authority any more.

vilifiedtwin 8y ago

If you are going that path then why not tell Google stop hosting other immoral project like news apps that publish pro war on drugs stories and misinformation about the drugs, preventing people from making informed decisions and causing deaths indirectly? That's more serious than women's tracking app.

apostacy 8y ago
No, I think that offensive opinions are an order of magnitude LESS serious than a women's tracking app. Are you serious? Publishing misinformation about drugs is more serious than the handmaiden app?
- vilifiedtwin 8y ago
  Misinformation about drugs causes death. Yes that is serious.

apostacy 8y ago

Saudi Arabia only freed their African slaves in 1962. What if a new king re-enslaved them? I guess Google would be fine with hosting slave auction apps then, by this logic. I am so disgusted with the den of cowards and hypocrites at Google. Supercilious Google developers would condescend to us with platitudes of "Black lives matter" while literally hosting an enslavement app. It really would happen that way. Google would censor someone who makes fun of feminism with extreme prejudice, but will not lift a finger for this actual handmaiden app. They removed the Gab app at the drop of a hat because they claim to be against white supremacy, but they tacitly endorse the far more dangerous Chinese ethnostate to round up minorities into actual camps. The Chinese government forces Uyghurs in some regions to install apks on their android phones, and Google will NOT interfere, even though it would be easy to blacklist them. Maybe it would be ineffective, but it would be doing something. I don't want to hear that cooperating with oppression is somehow for the greater good. This is not who we are. There are actual people who are suffering as a direct result of Google's refusal to take a stand about who uses their platform. They are clearly willing to remove apps that displease them for arbitrary reasons, so they have no excuse not to act.

joshuamorton 8y ago
I'd encourage you to read this tweet[0] and this article[1]. They provide perspectives from Saudi women. To do my best to summarize: Indeed, the app is bad. That it exists or needs to exist is a bad thing. But given the Saudi government and Saudi law, the opinion of many women in Saudi Arabia is that scrapping the app would hurt their agency, not help it. They need male approval to travel either way, and by making it easier to get, the app, in practice, gives women more agency by lowering the bureaucratic barriers to travel. The best way I can put it is that the app here doesn't really particularly help the oppressors. Like maybe, in a contrived way, you can argue that by making the oppression lighter weight you're less likely to have a full on revolution or something. But then, you've still lessened the oppression. That's not a bad thing. But if removing the app from the store makes the experience of women in Saudi Arabia worse, which is exactly what many of those women are saying, then removing it doesn't do anything. You're just asking to have the Saudi society regress even further to a position where in practice women had even less agency. Is that better? [0]: https://twitter.com/monaeltahawy/status/1095360734798721025 https://twitter.com/monaeltahawy/status/1095360734798721025 an [1]: http://time.com/5532221/absher-saudi-arabia-what-to-know/ http://time.com/5532221/absher-saudi-arabia-what-to-know/
- apostacy 8y ago
  I think that American corporations should not facilitate evil. You might be 100% right, I certainly don't know the perspectives of Saudi women, but I will take your word for it. But if Google resisting evil means that the Saudi government punishes Saudi women, then that is the fault of the Saudi government. Should Google accede to every despotic government that threatens its people? I wrote in a previous comment about how Google does nothing to prevent China from using its technology to put innocent people in camps. Perhaps China will be even more brutal if Google tries to thwart them. But I still think Google has an obligation not to cooperate. I sympathize with what you are saying. And if I were a woman in Saudi Arabia, I would probably not want the app banned too.
  - joshuamorton 8y ago
    How is loosening the restriction on freedom of movement for women evil? That's what this app does. I'm also confused by the china comparison. I'm not aware of any google tech China is using to oppress, but even if that is true, your China example is technology causing more oppression. This is the opposite. The technology reduces the oppression. You're presenting a very weird moral arfument. If you thought that not supporting this app would accelerate the fall of the Saudi regime, I'd say you're naive, but ok. But you're not saying that, you're saying that American companies shouldn't work with groups you don't like, even when the result is objectively good, because, for lack of a better term, virtue signalling. Why?

pgeorgi 8y ago

> it's still facilitating an immoral action (running an oppressive government that doesn't respect freedom of movement) In that case, Google and Apple should completely withdraw from Saudi Arabia: no iPhones, no appstore, no AdSense, ... Any of these lead to tax revenue which facilitates running that oppressive government. That's not what people are demanding though: they want some inconsequential app removed to demonstrate that they can coerce big tech companies to do their bidding. The icing on the cake is that they essentially work with strategies straight from the "fake news" handbook, by making it sound as if the app provides a new means of control ("government app which lets men track women and control their travel", straight from the title of the linked article). Even more annoying to me is that one of these campaigners is D-CA representative Jackie Speier who promotes herself on Twitter (https://twitter.com/repspeier https://twitter.com/repspeier) as "Fearless Fighter for women’s equality, LGBTQ rights & the disenfranchised." Given that women who demand equality, LGBTQ folks and the disenfranchised (e.g. Filipino immigrants) still have to fear for their lives in Saudi Arabia, where's the house bill to setup a full blown embargo until human rights are universally respected? _That_ would be fearless. Demanding removal of that app? That's merely flexing their muscles in a US domestic political battle. Human rights don't deserve to be abused like that.

apostacy 8y ago
> In that case, Google and Apple should completely withdraw from Saudi Arabia: no iPhones, no appstore, no AdSense, ... Any of these lead to tax revenue which facilitates running that oppressive government. > That's not what people are demanding though: they want some inconsequential app removed to demonstrate that they can coerce big tech companies to do their bidding. Actually, I kind of am demanding that they not do business with oppressive regimes. You make it sounds like some huge sacrifice. It is not. And it would give them a shred of moral credibility. Or, on the other hand, if Google must do business with Saudi Arabia, I expect them to shut up and never again speak of virtue again. I expect them to let neo-nazi apps trend on the front page of their app store. Because they have no moral authority any more.