6 ms·

The app is basically a webview around a government website, and the notification happens by SMS. I'm still struggling to understand why anyone thinks removing t

The app is basically a webview around a government website, and the notification happens by SMS. I'm still struggling to understand why anyone thinks removing the app will have any effect - it's not like removing an app from a store would cause SMS messages to stop.

gumby 8y ago
Because their App Store is curated (you couldn't, say, have a child pornography app) and so by permitting this app they are saying it's OK with them.
- tedivm 8y ago
  Child porn is illegal, so even if the app store wasn't curated it wouldn't the allowed. There are a ton of other things that are legal but that google doesn't allow though, so your point still stands.
  - gotocake 8y ago
    The system of tracking and restricting womens’ movement would also be illegal in most countries, so which set of laws do we use? At some point we do have to choose, in the same way we would if child porn were legal in a country Google did business in. Would they then have an excuse to host a version of Tindr for tracking kids?
- syrrim 8y ago
  They're curating for user experience, not for political opinions. If someone uploaded a vim clone google isn't taking a stance in the editor war by letting it stay up. "Saying it's OK with them." If they made a public statement "we are not ok with this, but the app stays anyways" is everyone satisfied now? Everyone knows google is in favour of womens right. People want them to take it down because they think google won't, so it gives them an opportunity to complain about how sexist google is. Then the next time something happens regarding women near google, they'll say wow google is so sexist remember how they made women get permissions slips to travel? When in fact google is completely powerless before the might of a nation state, and the worst they can do is make saudi arabia host the apk on their own website.
  - apostacy 8y ago
    > They're curating for user experience, not for political opinions. If someone uploaded a vim clone google isn't taking a stance in the editor war by letting it stay up. That may have been true in 2015. But no, Google us curating for political reasons. Google claims that they are concerned about things like the safety of women and LGBT groups. They have banned apps like Gab.com for purely quite flimsy political reasons. So you would think that Google would have no problem banning this app. Thus, their approving of an app which literally facilitates patriarchal misogyny on a nation-wide scale, while banning apps that simply make misogynist jokes, is colossal hypocrisy on their part.
sasasassy 8y ago
In some countries being gay is punishable by death. It doesn't mean your walled garden app store having an app to find and punish gay people is OK.
- cronix 8y ago
  I don't think anyone is saying it's OK. Just that removing the app will have 0 effect on the current law or the outcome. They'd just go back to pen/paper like they had to before the app was available, and take longer.
  - darkpuma 8y ago
    > "They'd just go back to pen/paper like they had to before the app was available, and take longer." That would inconvenience Saudi men, would it not?
    - caymanjim 8y ago
      No, it would inconvenience Saudi women, because the men wouldn't bother doing the extra work.
      - darkpuma 8y ago
        Would the Saudis really have created this app if it didn't convenience Saudi men? I doubt that. I don't think the Saudi government is in the business of conveniencing Saudi women, except insofar as that's an incidental byproduct of conveniencing Saudi men.
  - brenschluss 8y ago
    If removing the app has 0 effect, then having the app has 0 effect also, so might as well remove it, no?
    - eridius 8y ago
      See this other comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19292651 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19292651 In short, the app, as awful as it is, is an improvement for Saudi women. Getting rid of it will hurt them.
pintxo 8y ago
Actually read an article where the app was helping the daughter to escape: she stole Daddy’s phone and that way he did not get any notifications and she could approve her own leaving the country!
- diebeforei485 8y ago
  Those are SMS messages, not app notifications delivered via Google/Firebase Cloud Messaging (or Apple Push Notification Service on Apple platforms). But yes, it would have been much harder without the app, because the old system would have required her dad to appear in-person, wet-sign specific paper forms, etc.
- pintxo 8y ago
  > In order to flee, Nourah used her father’s phone to give herself permission to travel, disabled his notifications and flew to Turkey. From there she traveled to Georgia, then bought a ticket to Australia via the United Arab Emirates, although she feared that the Emirati government would catch her in transit and return her to Saudi Arabia. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/11/world/middleeast/saudi-arabia-women-flee.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/11/world/middleeast/saudi-ar...
happytoexplain 8y ago
Personally, I have not seen people citing the elimination of the SMS system as an effect of removing the app, so I can't relate with struggling to understand why people would claim such a thing. Also, you speak as though there are no other reasons to want the app removed. Have you considered the accessibility an app provides over a web site to new users? Or the simple subjective perception of its availability?
- diebeforei485 8y ago
  "New Users" register IRL, and can then use either the website on desktop, the website on mobile, or the app. There is no ease of onboarding provided by the app, given that onboarding happens IRL. Perception varies by cultural context, so it doesn't really matter how people with no connection to Saudi Arabia perceive things. Removing the app would mean making travel even harder, not easier - you should look at how all of this worked before the online service was introduced.
  - reaperducer 8y ago
    There is no ease of onboarding provided by the app Removing the app would mean making travel even harder These seem like contradictory statements.
x0x0 8y ago
Because there's a space to say something to the government of Saudi Arabia "Listen, what you're doing is fucking disgusting. Maybe I can't stop you, but I sure as hell don't have to help you."
morpheuskafka 8y ago
We should find out what carrier they are using to introduce those messages into the SMS network and demand that other carriers blacklist them until they stop.
- tedunangst 8y ago
  Presumably Saudi Telecom. Not sure why you're focused on the carrier. Why not simply demand your phone company not connect to Saudi Arabia's country code?
m-p-3 8y ago
So if I made a webview to PornHub, and sent feed notification over SMS, that would be okay? I'm sure Google would take it down in a heartbeat. And as you said, it wouldn't have any effect on PornHub as people would still go there through the website, but it shows that Google is okay with government-backed slavery but not with porn.

gumby 8y ago

Because their App Store is curated (you couldn't, say, have a child pornography app) and so by permitting this app they are saying it's OK with them.

tedivm 8y ago
Child porn is illegal, so even if the app store wasn't curated it wouldn't the allowed. There are a ton of other things that are legal but that google doesn't allow though, so your point still stands.
- gotocake 8y ago
  The system of tracking and restricting womens’ movement would also be illegal in most countries, so which set of laws do we use? At some point we do have to choose, in the same way we would if child porn were legal in a country Google did business in. Would they then have an excuse to host a version of Tindr for tracking kids?
syrrim 8y ago
They're curating for user experience, not for political opinions. If someone uploaded a vim clone google isn't taking a stance in the editor war by letting it stay up. "Saying it's OK with them." If they made a public statement "we are not ok with this, but the app stays anyways" is everyone satisfied now? Everyone knows google is in favour of womens right. People want them to take it down because they think google won't, so it gives them an opportunity to complain about how sexist google is. Then the next time something happens regarding women near google, they'll say wow google is so sexist remember how they made women get permissions slips to travel? When in fact google is completely powerless before the might of a nation state, and the worst they can do is make saudi arabia host the apk on their own website.
- apostacy 8y ago
  > They're curating for user experience, not for political opinions. If someone uploaded a vim clone google isn't taking a stance in the editor war by letting it stay up. That may have been true in 2015. But no, Google us curating for political reasons. Google claims that they are concerned about things like the safety of women and LGBT groups. They have banned apps like Gab.com for purely quite flimsy political reasons. So you would think that Google would have no problem banning this app. Thus, their approving of an app which literally facilitates patriarchal misogyny on a nation-wide scale, while banning apps that simply make misogynist jokes, is colossal hypocrisy on their part.

sasasassy 8y ago

In some countries being gay is punishable by death. It doesn't mean your walled garden app store having an app to find and punish gay people is OK.

cronix 8y ago
I don't think anyone is saying it's OK. Just that removing the app will have 0 effect on the current law or the outcome. They'd just go back to pen/paper like they had to before the app was available, and take longer.
- darkpuma 8y ago
  > "They'd just go back to pen/paper like they had to before the app was available, and take longer." That would inconvenience Saudi men, would it not?
  - caymanjim 8y ago
    No, it would inconvenience Saudi women, because the men wouldn't bother doing the extra work.
    - darkpuma 8y ago
      Would the Saudis really have created this app if it didn't convenience Saudi men? I doubt that. I don't think the Saudi government is in the business of conveniencing Saudi women, except insofar as that's an incidental byproduct of conveniencing Saudi men.
- brenschluss 8y ago
  If removing the app has 0 effect, then having the app has 0 effect also, so might as well remove it, no?
  - eridius 8y ago
    See this other comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19292651 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19292651 In short, the app, as awful as it is, is an improvement for Saudi women. Getting rid of it will hurt them.

pintxo 8y ago

Actually read an article where the app was helping the daughter to escape: she stole Daddy’s phone and that way he did not get any notifications and she could approve her own leaving the country!

diebeforei485 8y ago
Those are SMS messages, not app notifications delivered via Google/Firebase Cloud Messaging (or Apple Push Notification Service on Apple platforms). But yes, it would have been much harder without the app, because the old system would have required her dad to appear in-person, wet-sign specific paper forms, etc.
pintxo 8y ago
> In order to flee, Nourah used her father’s phone to give herself permission to travel, disabled his notifications and flew to Turkey. From there she traveled to Georgia, then bought a ticket to Australia via the United Arab Emirates, although she feared that the Emirati government would catch her in transit and return her to Saudi Arabia. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/11/world/middleeast/saudi-arabia-women-flee.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/11/world/middleeast/saudi-ar...

happytoexplain 8y ago

Personally, I have not seen people citing the elimination of the SMS system as an effect of removing the app, so I can't relate with struggling to understand why people would claim such a thing. Also, you speak as though there are no other reasons to want the app removed. Have you considered the accessibility an app provides over a web site to new users? Or the simple subjective perception of its availability?

diebeforei485 8y ago
"New Users" register IRL, and can then use either the website on desktop, the website on mobile, or the app. There is no ease of onboarding provided by the app, given that onboarding happens IRL. Perception varies by cultural context, so it doesn't really matter how people with no connection to Saudi Arabia perceive things. Removing the app would mean making travel even harder, not easier - you should look at how all of this worked before the online service was introduced.
- reaperducer 8y ago
  There is no ease of onboarding provided by the app Removing the app would mean making travel even harder These seem like contradictory statements.

x0x0 8y ago

Because there's a space to say something to the government of Saudi Arabia "Listen, what you're doing is fucking disgusting. Maybe I can't stop you, but I sure as hell don't have to help you."

morpheuskafka 8y ago

We should find out what carrier they are using to introduce those messages into the SMS network and demand that other carriers blacklist them until they stop.

tedunangst 8y ago
Presumably Saudi Telecom. Not sure why you're focused on the carrier. Why not simply demand your phone company not connect to Saudi Arabia's country code?

m-p-3 8y ago

So if I made a webview to PornHub, and sent feed notification over SMS, that would be okay? I'm sure Google would take it down in a heartbeat. And as you said, it wouldn't have any effect on PornHub as people would still go there through the website, but it shows that Google is okay with government-backed slavery but not with porn.