6 ms·

What is the new licensing and how is it committing suicide? Last I checked everybody uses java for everything, especially Google, which then makes it ubiquitou

What is the new licensing and how is it committing suicide? Last I checked everybody uses java for everything, especially Google, which then makes it ubiquitous (on Android devices, etc.)

dogma1138 8y ago
This isn’t about Java as a language but about the Runtime binaries provided by Oracle. There is now a very aggressive fee structure for using Java SE/JDK in a commercial environment. https://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javaseproducts/overview/javasesubscriptionfaq-4891443.html https://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javaseproducts/overv... You will pay as much as $2.50 per user for desktop installations and as much as $25 per core for server installations, the Advanced subscription which also provides you with security updates for older versions of Java is now nearly $7000 per server per year.
- technofiend 8y ago
  In the past companies had no clue how much of something was installed. These days with cyber security being such a concern any company with tight controls knows exactly what's on every machine. It's not hard to treat Oracle Java like a threat and red flag it during scanning. And if Oracle keeps up these shenanigans I can't help but feel like that's exactly what will happen.
  - dogma1138 8y ago
    Eh? The entire financial sector runs on Java, this isn’t about milking fees form some random companies because someone installed Java on their laptop this is milking fees form the actual key users of Java. Microsoft has signed an agreement with Azul for Java on Azure and Amazon has released their own distribution of OpenJDK as a result. The company I work for also switched to Azul since the projected cost of Oracle was in the 10s of millions due to their Advanced support costs per server. Just to put things into perspective the projected yearly licensing cost for a single trading platform for us was 21 million dollars for the Oracle Advanced service agreement, I don’t know the exact final figure but apparently Azul was less than 200K for the entire company. I simply don’t understand how Oracle thought they could get away with these fees.
    - technofiend 8y ago
      Right but they don't have to run Oracle Java. I didn't say red flag any Java, I said red flag Oracle Java. So in the end I think we agree?
    - hermitdev 8y ago
      > The entire financial sector runs on Java No, it doesn't. Sure, you'll find a good amount of Java, but it will likely be C++ anywhere that's really latency sensitive. C# is also heavily used for front end GUIs now. F# is growing as well, and the quants (and others) love Python. In my experience in finance, Java is now legacy. It was a fun experiment and had a good go, but it's now withering away. Source: 15 years in financial development, mostly hedge funds, across 4 firms, and having interviewed with dozens of others. Only place I've worked at doing active Java development was a startup CRM SaaS targeting the financial space. Coincidentally, the only Oracle shop ive worked at.
      - pron 8y ago
        I think you are talking about a small sector of finance (trading, especially HFT?). The lion's share of software in finance is software used by large banks, insurance companies, etc. -- not hedge funds -- where Java is dominant (even in new projects).
    - djakjxnanjak 8y ago
      I think any amount of fees would trigger movement away from Oracle, and suspect they calculated they were better off going all in to extract the maximum possible value before people switched away.
- toyg 8y ago
  Nah, you won’t. For new deployments, you’ll use OpenJDK. For old deployments, you’ll either upgrade your codebase or use an alternative runtime (Amazon, IBM etc). Most of them will be free or cheaper than Oracle’s.
utopcell 8y ago
Isn't Android transitioning to kotlin ?
- freeone3000 8y ago
  This is the runtime binary. Android has always ran Dalvik, which is an alternative runtime implementation that uses some of the same class library interfaces.
grumpydba 8y ago
My company (big bank) is leaving oracle's jvm. Because of the new licensing. They are not the only ones.
- toyg 8y ago
  I don’t think Oracle minds, as long as you pick another JVM rather than moving to a different stack. What they do mind is that Java stays relevant without costing them a lot of money. By basically offloading support of old versions to others (and/or by getting paid more for that support activity) while they accelerate development speed, they will likely achieve that result. The alternative is to keep sinking a lot of money in development and marketing efforts, like Sun did; which, in the long term, resulted in slow release cycles and language stagnation, making other stacks more appealing.

What is the new licensing and how is it committing suicide? Last I checked everybody uses java for everything, especially Google, which then makes it ubiquitous (on Android devices, etc.)

dogma1138 8y ago

This isn’t about Java as a language but about the Runtime binaries provided by Oracle. There is now a very aggressive fee structure for using Java SE/JDK in a commercial environment. https://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javaseproducts/overview/javasesubscriptionfaq-4891443.html https://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javaseproducts/overv... You will pay as much as $2.50 per user for desktop installations and as much as $25 per core for server installations, the Advanced subscription which also provides you with security updates for older versions of Java is now nearly $7000 per server per year.

technofiend 8y ago
In the past companies had no clue how much of something was installed. These days with cyber security being such a concern any company with tight controls knows exactly what's on every machine. It's not hard to treat Oracle Java like a threat and red flag it during scanning. And if Oracle keeps up these shenanigans I can't help but feel like that's exactly what will happen.
- dogma1138 8y ago
  Eh? The entire financial sector runs on Java, this isn’t about milking fees form some random companies because someone installed Java on their laptop this is milking fees form the actual key users of Java. Microsoft has signed an agreement with Azul for Java on Azure and Amazon has released their own distribution of OpenJDK as a result. The company I work for also switched to Azul since the projected cost of Oracle was in the 10s of millions due to their Advanced support costs per server. Just to put things into perspective the projected yearly licensing cost for a single trading platform for us was 21 million dollars for the Oracle Advanced service agreement, I don’t know the exact final figure but apparently Azul was less than 200K for the entire company. I simply don’t understand how Oracle thought they could get away with these fees.
  - technofiend 8y ago
    Right but they don't have to run Oracle Java. I didn't say red flag any Java, I said red flag Oracle Java. So in the end I think we agree?
  - hermitdev 8y ago
    > The entire financial sector runs on Java No, it doesn't. Sure, you'll find a good amount of Java, but it will likely be C++ anywhere that's really latency sensitive. C# is also heavily used for front end GUIs now. F# is growing as well, and the quants (and others) love Python. In my experience in finance, Java is now legacy. It was a fun experiment and had a good go, but it's now withering away. Source: 15 years in financial development, mostly hedge funds, across 4 firms, and having interviewed with dozens of others. Only place I've worked at doing active Java development was a startup CRM SaaS targeting the financial space. Coincidentally, the only Oracle shop ive worked at.
    - pron 8y ago
      I think you are talking about a small sector of finance (trading, especially HFT?). The lion's share of software in finance is software used by large banks, insurance companies, etc. -- not hedge funds -- where Java is dominant (even in new projects).
  - djakjxnanjak 8y ago
    I think any amount of fees would trigger movement away from Oracle, and suspect they calculated they were better off going all in to extract the maximum possible value before people switched away.
toyg 8y ago
Nah, you won’t. For new deployments, you’ll use OpenJDK. For old deployments, you’ll either upgrade your codebase or use an alternative runtime (Amazon, IBM etc). Most of them will be free or cheaper than Oracle’s.

utopcell 8y ago

Isn't Android transitioning to kotlin ?

freeone3000 8y ago
This is the runtime binary. Android has always ran Dalvik, which is an alternative runtime implementation that uses some of the same class library interfaces.

grumpydba 8y ago

My company (big bank) is leaving oracle's jvm. Because of the new licensing. They are not the only ones.

toyg 8y ago
I don’t think Oracle minds, as long as you pick another JVM rather than moving to a different stack. What they do mind is that Java stays relevant without costing them a lot of money. By basically offloading support of old versions to others (and/or by getting paid more for that support activity) while they accelerate development speed, they will likely achieve that result. The alternative is to keep sinking a lot of money in development and marketing efforts, like Sun did; which, in the long term, resulted in slow release cycles and language stagnation, making other stacks more appealing.