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I'm surprised that no mention was made of the U.S. Navy's network of hydrophones (SOSUS) and whatever took its place in the late 1990s. SOSUS was quite successf

I'm surprised that no mention was made of the U.S. Navy's network of hydrophones (SOSUS) and whatever took its place in the late 1990s. SOSUS was quite successful at detecting a number of Russian submarines since the 1950s with every new generation thereof. In any event, I can only imagine that there would be U.S. government resources (military and otherwise) that could have provided some surveillance information on what happened to the Malaysian 777 airliner.

spectramax 8y ago
I wonder how much information, if any, is withheld by military organizations in various countries. I presume a particular country doesn’t want to give away their latest radar capabilities or what have you by disclosing tracking information whether it’s through satellite systems or through sub-ocean sonar.
- devonkim 8y ago
  You don't have to disclose capabilities in a press release honestly unless you really, really need to convince people that you're not falsifying the information or trying to mislead people - there is almost no incentive I can think of to mislead people on a general civilian search mission though. A government could simply point some lowly persons to the general area without any explanation of its methods, put almost no official support in funding the search, and it could relieve a great deal of pain and suffering should it lead to findings. The issue may come down to all the scrutiny that could happen were the information lead to the discovery of the plane and (presumably) its passengers. I'm not aware of any government issuing statements like this though in any capacity honestly. It is probably better to assume that our governments, while powerful, are not without their limitations whether it's bureaucracy, technicalities, or simple funding limits.
  - skookumchuck 8y ago
    > it could relieve a great deal of pain and suffering I confess I don't understand this. The families know how their loved ones died, when, and sort of where (in the ocean). How does knowing the precise location help any?
    - Gibbon1 8y ago
      I think the rituals around death aren't complete without a story. It's the reason why before they tore down the eastern span of the Bay Bridge that let the families of people that died on the bridge visit the spot where they died.
      - skookumchuck 8y ago
        I understand wanting to know more details. But having gone through rituals around death of someone close myself, it doesn't ease any of the pain. I've also wondered about those families attending the execution of the person who murdered their loved one. I doubt it eases their pain and suffering in the slightest.
        dewey 8y ago
        It’s almost like feelings are a very subjective matter and not the same for everyone. Not everyone thinks the same way as you do.
- sho 8y ago
  > I wonder how much information, if any, is withheld by military organizations in various countries. Ooh, I can answer that. All of it, unless forced to disclose by political factors. There is no upside to the military to releasing anything, ever. HN is a geekfest, and I'm a geek too. I could not, and still cannot, comprehend how resistant to the "helpfulness instinct" a military man is. I, by my very nature, cannot resist helping people whereever i can, and offering whatever information I might judge useful whenever I can. The military [1] is the exact opposite of that. It's hard to get your head around. I have zero doubt that one or more militaries in the area, especially Singapore, know exactly where MH370 went, or at least what direction it eventually took off in. Every radar in the world is recording 24/7. They have no incentive whatsoever to divulge what they undoubtably know. We'll find out in a few decades, probably. [1] and many large corporations.
  - pgeorgi 8y ago
    > I have zero doubt that one or more militaries in the area, especially Singapore, know exactly where MH370 went, or at least what direction it eventually took off in. There were so many cranks producing ideas where MH370 went, they could have just used one of those as a front by "backing" a theory that happens to be nearby the point where they have to search, gently nudging the search closer to where it really is and score tons of points for being first in a huge international search effort.
    - sho 8y ago
      What I was trying to get across in my comment is that the military, in general, does not care in the slightest about those "points". They will not release anything unless specifically and explicitly forced to and needless to say they have not been. They are quite happy to watch other governments, or even their own government, waste millions of dollars looking in the wrong place. Correcting them is not in their mission statement and, frankly, not even part of their thinking. The whole area is one of the most densely packed geopolitical zones in the world. It beggars belief that multiple parties did not observe, in detail, the whole thing. It was not a stealth aircraft. Fucking Australia probably saw it. I am quite certain Singapore did. Like I said, we'll probably hear all about it in a few decades.
Spooky23 8y ago
Part of the problem is the area is like the ultimate backwater.
rtkwe 8y ago
SOSUS (according to the public maps) is very focused on the Pacific and Atlantic oceans and a lot around Russian territorial waters. The network is probably a bit denser than represented on the map but there's not much need for it in the Indian Ocean. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Sosus_map.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Sosus_ma...
- rdiddly 8y ago
  (according to the public maps) is a good disclaimer to add. If you believe those maps, they are basically disregarding the Persian Gulf for example, to a degree that I find wildly inconsistent with the volume and intensity of US diplomatic, political and military intervention in the area. I strongly suspect they've got the whole area mic'd, but under a new program that's "deployment-specific" and more secret. But if they were to offer their observations to the search effort, they would be exposing the existence and possibly the locations of any hydrophones.
  - rtkwe 8y ago
    I'm not so sure SOSUS is largely an anti-submarine tool and the main countries the US would worry about tracking with subs are Russia and China.

spectramax 8y ago

I wonder how much information, if any, is withheld by military organizations in various countries. I presume a particular country doesn’t want to give away their latest radar capabilities or what have you by disclosing tracking information whether it’s through satellite systems or through sub-ocean sonar.

devonkim 8y ago
You don't have to disclose capabilities in a press release honestly unless you really, really need to convince people that you're not falsifying the information or trying to mislead people - there is almost no incentive I can think of to mislead people on a general civilian search mission though. A government could simply point some lowly persons to the general area without any explanation of its methods, put almost no official support in funding the search, and it could relieve a great deal of pain and suffering should it lead to findings. The issue may come down to all the scrutiny that could happen were the information lead to the discovery of the plane and (presumably) its passengers. I'm not aware of any government issuing statements like this though in any capacity honestly. It is probably better to assume that our governments, while powerful, are not without their limitations whether it's bureaucracy, technicalities, or simple funding limits.
- skookumchuck 8y ago
  > it could relieve a great deal of pain and suffering I confess I don't understand this. The families know how their loved ones died, when, and sort of where (in the ocean). How does knowing the precise location help any?
  - Gibbon1 8y ago
    I think the rituals around death aren't complete without a story. It's the reason why before they tore down the eastern span of the Bay Bridge that let the families of people that died on the bridge visit the spot where they died.
    - skookumchuck 8y ago
      I understand wanting to know more details. But having gone through rituals around death of someone close myself, it doesn't ease any of the pain. I've also wondered about those families attending the execution of the person who murdered their loved one. I doubt it eases their pain and suffering in the slightest.
      - dewey 8y ago
        It’s almost like feelings are a very subjective matter and not the same for everyone. Not everyone thinks the same way as you do.
sho 8y ago
> I wonder how much information, if any, is withheld by military organizations in various countries. Ooh, I can answer that. All of it, unless forced to disclose by political factors. There is no upside to the military to releasing anything, ever. HN is a geekfest, and I'm a geek too. I could not, and still cannot, comprehend how resistant to the "helpfulness instinct" a military man is. I, by my very nature, cannot resist helping people whereever i can, and offering whatever information I might judge useful whenever I can. The military [1] is the exact opposite of that. It's hard to get your head around. I have zero doubt that one or more militaries in the area, especially Singapore, know exactly where MH370 went, or at least what direction it eventually took off in. Every radar in the world is recording 24/7. They have no incentive whatsoever to divulge what they undoubtably know. We'll find out in a few decades, probably. [1] and many large corporations.
- pgeorgi 8y ago
  > I have zero doubt that one or more militaries in the area, especially Singapore, know exactly where MH370 went, or at least what direction it eventually took off in. There were so many cranks producing ideas where MH370 went, they could have just used one of those as a front by "backing" a theory that happens to be nearby the point where they have to search, gently nudging the search closer to where it really is and score tons of points for being first in a huge international search effort.
  - sho 8y ago
    What I was trying to get across in my comment is that the military, in general, does not care in the slightest about those "points". They will not release anything unless specifically and explicitly forced to and needless to say they have not been. They are quite happy to watch other governments, or even their own government, waste millions of dollars looking in the wrong place. Correcting them is not in their mission statement and, frankly, not even part of their thinking. The whole area is one of the most densely packed geopolitical zones in the world. It beggars belief that multiple parties did not observe, in detail, the whole thing. It was not a stealth aircraft. Fucking Australia probably saw it. I am quite certain Singapore did. Like I said, we'll probably hear all about it in a few decades.

Spooky23 8y ago

Part of the problem is the area is like the ultimate backwater.

rtkwe 8y ago

SOSUS (according to the public maps) is very focused on the Pacific and Atlantic oceans and a lot around Russian territorial waters. The network is probably a bit denser than represented on the map but there's not much need for it in the Indian Ocean. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Sosus_map.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Sosus_ma...

rdiddly 8y ago
(according to the public maps) is a good disclaimer to add. If you believe those maps, they are basically disregarding the Persian Gulf for example, to a degree that I find wildly inconsistent with the volume and intensity of US diplomatic, political and military intervention in the area. I strongly suspect they've got the whole area mic'd, but under a new program that's "deployment-specific" and more secret. But if they were to offer their observations to the search effort, they would be exposing the existence and possibly the locations of any hydrophones.
- rtkwe 8y ago
  I'm not so sure SOSUS is largely an anti-submarine tool and the main countries the US would worry about tracking with subs are Russia and China.