4 ms·

What do you mean by soft punishment? The United States is a great place to be a dissident. Dissident behavior is kind of expected, and historically, they’ve bee

by afpx 8y ago

What do you mean by soft punishment? The United States is a great place to be a dissident. Dissident behavior is kind of expected, and historically, they’ve been iconified.

scottlocklin 8y ago
No, actually, other than something like the communist film writers of the 1950s (who obviously had a better publicity department than most), most American dissidents have been forgotten. Soft punishment means you don't let them get jobs doing what they're good at. Like commie writers in the 50s.
- afpx 8y ago
  It’s never an easy life to be a radical against the establishment. But, there’s plenty of tolerance for such behavior (especially if the behavior is non-violent). Even during 50s. McCarthyism was a knee jerk reaction to the Cold War. And, it was quickly rectified. Our culture encourages thinking differently and speaking out - just consider our history of music, literature, film, comedy, political dissent, etc.
  - scottlocklin 8y ago
    I dunno, sounds like happy talk to me. It's definitely part of the english speaking people's self conception that "thinking different and speaking out" is encouraged, but it really isn't any more than in any other society. Consider the Comstocks, the people who were against US entry into WW-1, the "brown scare" which started the HUAC, people who are presently against various wars in the middle east (denounced as "racists" or "Russian sock puppets"), or various recent coups and attempts at such (ditto); these people were and are squashed fairly mercilessly by the establishment. The actual bounds of allowable discussion are narrow and strictly enforced. Hell, US persists in passing anti-BDS laws that are obviously and egregiously unconstitutional, and the British throw people in prison for saying things ... on FB. It's a kinder, gentler system than used by the Chinese, but the end result isn't any different.
    - afpx 8y ago
      I’ll admit that I’m probably biased, and I haven’t had enough experience living outside of the US to have gained a different perspective. But, now I’m curious. Which countries are currently and historically known for being tolerant and accepting of dissent? Honest question - I’ve been considering retirement lately, and I’m up for a new adventure.
      - scottlocklin 8y ago
        If I had to rank them, I think Iceland is the most tolerant country. Assuming you know how to use the Icelandic-correct way to use Sauna and the Hot tub. Generally speaking I think smaller countries are better for this; dissent becomes a judgement on a personal level which is almost always more generous than on a societal level. In Iceland I heard many times, "I knew Bobby Fischer, he was a nice man." In America we still think of him as some kind of demon because ... I dunno, he said things I guess. Reality was he didn't bother anyone which is more than you can say for virtually any US politicians. Personally I don't look at things this "what is most tolerant" way. You don't pick the country which is tolerant and accepting of dissent: this is a futile exercise. You pick the country which best fits your views.
  - sven55 8y ago
    This is definitely one of strengths of American culture. I had a long conversation with my grandfather about it a while back. He studied and worked in the US during the 40s and 50s. While I did my MS and worked there just a few years ago. Both of us agreed that people aren't afraid to question things or think different. Whether it is to a prof or a boss or an authority figure. It's not just a lack of fear, but people are encouraged and expected to speak and respected when they do it. The internet/consumerism and the media have taken those strengths to an extreme is what I feel is happening today. That hopefully will correct itself as you pointed out as with McCarthyism.

by afpx 8y ago

What do you mean by soft punishment? The United States is a great place to be a dissident. Dissident behavior is kind of expected, and historically, they’ve been iconified.

scottlocklin 8y ago

No, actually, other than something like the communist film writers of the 1950s (who obviously had a better publicity department than most), most American dissidents have been forgotten. Soft punishment means you don't let them get jobs doing what they're good at. Like commie writers in the 50s.

afpx 8y ago
It’s never an easy life to be a radical against the establishment. But, there’s plenty of tolerance for such behavior (especially if the behavior is non-violent). Even during 50s. McCarthyism was a knee jerk reaction to the Cold War. And, it was quickly rectified. Our culture encourages thinking differently and speaking out - just consider our history of music, literature, film, comedy, political dissent, etc.
- scottlocklin 8y ago
  I dunno, sounds like happy talk to me. It's definitely part of the english speaking people's self conception that "thinking different and speaking out" is encouraged, but it really isn't any more than in any other society. Consider the Comstocks, the people who were against US entry into WW-1, the "brown scare" which started the HUAC, people who are presently against various wars in the middle east (denounced as "racists" or "Russian sock puppets"), or various recent coups and attempts at such (ditto); these people were and are squashed fairly mercilessly by the establishment. The actual bounds of allowable discussion are narrow and strictly enforced. Hell, US persists in passing anti-BDS laws that are obviously and egregiously unconstitutional, and the British throw people in prison for saying things ... on FB. It's a kinder, gentler system than used by the Chinese, but the end result isn't any different.
  - afpx 8y ago
    I’ll admit that I’m probably biased, and I haven’t had enough experience living outside of the US to have gained a different perspective. But, now I’m curious. Which countries are currently and historically known for being tolerant and accepting of dissent? Honest question - I’ve been considering retirement lately, and I’m up for a new adventure.
    - scottlocklin 8y ago
      If I had to rank them, I think Iceland is the most tolerant country. Assuming you know how to use the Icelandic-correct way to use Sauna and the Hot tub. Generally speaking I think smaller countries are better for this; dissent becomes a judgement on a personal level which is almost always more generous than on a societal level. In Iceland I heard many times, "I knew Bobby Fischer, he was a nice man." In America we still think of him as some kind of demon because ... I dunno, he said things I guess. Reality was he didn't bother anyone which is more than you can say for virtually any US politicians. Personally I don't look at things this "what is most tolerant" way. You don't pick the country which is tolerant and accepting of dissent: this is a futile exercise. You pick the country which best fits your views.
- sven55 8y ago
  This is definitely one of strengths of American culture. I had a long conversation with my grandfather about it a while back. He studied and worked in the US during the 40s and 50s. While I did my MS and worked there just a few years ago. Both of us agreed that people aren't afraid to question things or think different. Whether it is to a prof or a boss or an authority figure. It's not just a lack of fear, but people are encouraged and expected to speak and respected when they do it. The internet/consumerism and the media have taken those strengths to an extreme is what I feel is happening today. That hopefully will correct itself as you pointed out as with McCarthyism.