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Honestly I hate how dystopian and alien Western publications make China’s social credit system when our actual credit system (Equifax/Experian/Transunion) bars

Honestly I hate how dystopian and alien Western publications make China’s social credit system when our actual credit system (Equifax/Experian/Transunion) bars millions of people from getting a cell phone, renting apartments, even getting a job (why is it even legal or useful for an employer to check your credit?!). Point is, preventing people from access to communication, housing, and employment because of nonexistent or bad credit is much more dystopian than not being able to buy a plane ticket.

z9e 8y ago
Because as a lender I don't want to give someone money to buy xyz when they have a history of not making their payments. I don't think this analogy works.
- anfilt 8y ago
  Still I think part of the problem is that you can't opt out. If I wanted opt out and you tried to look me up and it said no info. Well that means you as a lender then choose to not lend the money or just assume highest risk or limit risk by loaning only smaller amount. People should be able to opt out.
  - gruez 8y ago
    What you're describing as an opt-out is really a gag order to prevent businesses from disclosing your misdeeds. Why should you be able to prevent others from saying true things about you?
    - seisvelas 8y ago
      Not arguing either way, but to answer >Why should you be able to prevent others from saying true things about you? The obvious reason is privacy. Misdeed is subjective and the aggressive broadcasting of supposed misdeeds can be a conformist beating stick. Literal truth is a low standard for determining whether something should be said. Personally, I think Buddha's heuristic is pretty useful: When determining whether you should say something, Is it kind? Is it necessary? Is it honest? Does it improve upon the silence?
wycy 8y ago
Preventing people from buying a plane ticket sounds worse IMO. At least some argument could be made to support preventing people with bad credit from buying on that credit. Preventing people from leaving is scary. I do agree that there’s almost no justification for credit score being used to determine employment.
tcbawo 8y ago
Managing risk is important for business owners. It is extremely expensive to remove a tenant who stops paying. For a small landlord, it can be devastating. Also, for an employer that has a significant investment of capital in physical inventory, intellectual property, public reputation, etc., a poor hire can destroy a business. What does China have to lose by preventing someone from flying? It sounds like it is used for social engineering and stemming political dissent, which is creepy.
honda22 8y ago
On my first long trip to the US in 2001 I couldn't buy a simcard because I didn't have a credit history. A prepaid plan btw. "How do I get a credit history if I just landed?" "Well here's a free credit card application. We'll give you a credit card immediately. Run around the mall and buy some stuff." Which I had to do. Weird country.
- cft 8y ago
  I walked into a T-Mobile store with my Mexican visitor and he bought a Sim card instantly first day off the plane
- spectramax 8y ago
  This is not how America operates and I don’t believe your story. Credit Cards cannot be obtained immediately. Getting an application - yes, getting a Credit Card - no. Also, there is never been a requirement for credit history to obtain a prepaid SIM card. I’m 100% sure that you’re mistaking with a postpaid SIM card.
- prepend 8y ago
  I think you may have been scammed or taken advantage of by an individual and is not a good experience for judging how the US works. Prepaid sims (and entire phones) could be bought in cash back in 2001. Also credit history is not in real time, so any purchases made while running around the mall would not be reflected that day for credit application purchases.
- gruez 8y ago
  > couldn't buy a simcard because I didn't have a credit history. A prepaid plan btw. Maybe this was a 2001 thing, but you definitely do not need a credit check for prepaid plans. Maybe you were also financing your phone? >"Well here's a free credit card application. We'll give you a credit card immediately. Run around the mall and buy some stuff." This sounds suspect as well. I've seen in store applications, but they never give out cards to use on the spot. Also, I highly doubt that they would give a credit card to a non-resident with no credit history.
eponeponepon 8y ago
There's a world of difference between "this person has a track record of not paying their bills, so exercise caution before lending" and "this person was observed reading subversive literature, so don't let him leave the country". I agree that pre-employment credit checks seem unhelpful for most lines of work (but consider: do you think a bank should be happy to employ a sysadmin with massive gambling debts?), but I have my doubts that every employer does them as you imply.
- spectramax 8y ago
  More importantly, citizens of USA can sue the government and challenge the ban in court. If it gets escalated to Supreme Court, it has major lasting impact forever and cannot be appealed by Legislative or Executive branches. Try doing that in China. This argument of credit system of USA vs China’s social credit system is put forth ad-nauseam and it shows a completely negligence and understanding of both, Chinese and American systems of law and order.
jsbaby608 8y ago
It's not even close to being the same. Your US credit score is an assessment of your risk to potential lenders based on different factors. The alternative is that only rich people get credit, because they most likely will pay it back...which used to be the case 30+ years ago. Every person I know with terrible credit has access to all of the things you mentioned. China's system is based on things like your friends and your opinions of the government and is just a way to control the people. It's also mandated by the government. Last I checked, Equifax can't put me in jail for a bad credit score. Totally different and scary.
Shivetya 8y ago
You can still buy a phone with cash or prepay. the only jobs I have ever seen restricted by your credit history are those with access to cash or government jobs requiring a security clearance; worked for a rent-a-cop company and our government positioned guards were in some cases off the job for most misdemeanors. Renting, wholly up to the renter but most rely on the deposit and no violent criminal history. Some rentals now even maintain the utilities which actually makes it easier for those with poor credit to move in. The deposits required if you have shorted a public utility can be severe when starting new service. Now with regards to this I have to ask, why should someone renting a home not be allowed to question the renters ability or willingness to pay the rent? Now, China's system would basically be the equivalent in the US of losing your driving license on top of the ability to travel through most public venues requiring and id, all done at the behest of the government and not individuals. That is is pure dystopian/1984 style oppression. Hell, that is, here, wear a yellow star type stuff and needs to be stomped out
- throwawayt5poi 8y ago
  From my understanding, China’s system is actually similar, just that the media makes it more dystopian. These are for wealthy debtors that refuse to pay. And they are only barred from the high speed rail and not regular trains. The idea is to force them to pay fines that they can easily pay, but refuse too. Once paid, their credit score can start building up again.
  - spectramax 8y ago
    In fact, it’s much worse than what media portrays. Chinese media has no spine and there is no such thing as free press in China. What you hear from outside media is a small glimpse of a rising dystopian one party system. See the following article for a detailed analysis of the credit score system and its ramifications: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/08/business/china-surveillance-technology.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/08/business/china-surveillan...
umvi 8y ago
Every time I see one of these "but actually America is the real dystopia" comments I remind myself that in the USA the government won't kidnap you to secretly execute you and harvest your organs.

z9e 8y ago

Because as a lender I don't want to give someone money to buy xyz when they have a history of not making their payments. I don't think this analogy works.

anfilt 8y ago
Still I think part of the problem is that you can't opt out. If I wanted opt out and you tried to look me up and it said no info. Well that means you as a lender then choose to not lend the money or just assume highest risk or limit risk by loaning only smaller amount. People should be able to opt out.
- gruez 8y ago
  What you're describing as an opt-out is really a gag order to prevent businesses from disclosing your misdeeds. Why should you be able to prevent others from saying true things about you?
  - seisvelas 8y ago
    Not arguing either way, but to answer >Why should you be able to prevent others from saying true things about you? The obvious reason is privacy. Misdeed is subjective and the aggressive broadcasting of supposed misdeeds can be a conformist beating stick. Literal truth is a low standard for determining whether something should be said. Personally, I think Buddha's heuristic is pretty useful: When determining whether you should say something, Is it kind? Is it necessary? Is it honest? Does it improve upon the silence?

wycy 8y ago

Preventing people from buying a plane ticket sounds worse IMO. At least some argument could be made to support preventing people with bad credit from buying on that credit. Preventing people from leaving is scary. I do agree that there’s almost no justification for credit score being used to determine employment.

tcbawo 8y ago

Managing risk is important for business owners. It is extremely expensive to remove a tenant who stops paying. For a small landlord, it can be devastating. Also, for an employer that has a significant investment of capital in physical inventory, intellectual property, public reputation, etc., a poor hire can destroy a business. What does China have to lose by preventing someone from flying? It sounds like it is used for social engineering and stemming political dissent, which is creepy.

honda22 8y ago

On my first long trip to the US in 2001 I couldn't buy a simcard because I didn't have a credit history. A prepaid plan btw. "How do I get a credit history if I just landed?" "Well here's a free credit card application. We'll give you a credit card immediately. Run around the mall and buy some stuff." Which I had to do. Weird country.

cft 8y ago
I walked into a T-Mobile store with my Mexican visitor and he bought a Sim card instantly first day off the plane
spectramax 8y ago
This is not how America operates and I don’t believe your story. Credit Cards cannot be obtained immediately. Getting an application - yes, getting a Credit Card - no. Also, there is never been a requirement for credit history to obtain a prepaid SIM card. I’m 100% sure that you’re mistaking with a postpaid SIM card.
prepend 8y ago
I think you may have been scammed or taken advantage of by an individual and is not a good experience for judging how the US works. Prepaid sims (and entire phones) could be bought in cash back in 2001. Also credit history is not in real time, so any purchases made while running around the mall would not be reflected that day for credit application purchases.
gruez 8y ago
> couldn't buy a simcard because I didn't have a credit history. A prepaid plan btw. Maybe this was a 2001 thing, but you definitely do not need a credit check for prepaid plans. Maybe you were also financing your phone? >"Well here's a free credit card application. We'll give you a credit card immediately. Run around the mall and buy some stuff." This sounds suspect as well. I've seen in store applications, but they never give out cards to use on the spot. Also, I highly doubt that they would give a credit card to a non-resident with no credit history.

eponeponepon 8y ago

There's a world of difference between "this person has a track record of not paying their bills, so exercise caution before lending" and "this person was observed reading subversive literature, so don't let him leave the country". I agree that pre-employment credit checks seem unhelpful for most lines of work (but consider: do you think a bank should be happy to employ a sysadmin with massive gambling debts?), but I have my doubts that every employer does them as you imply.

spectramax 8y ago
More importantly, citizens of USA can sue the government and challenge the ban in court. If it gets escalated to Supreme Court, it has major lasting impact forever and cannot be appealed by Legislative or Executive branches. Try doing that in China. This argument of credit system of USA vs China’s social credit system is put forth ad-nauseam and it shows a completely negligence and understanding of both, Chinese and American systems of law and order.

jsbaby608 8y ago

It's not even close to being the same. Your US credit score is an assessment of your risk to potential lenders based on different factors. The alternative is that only rich people get credit, because they most likely will pay it back...which used to be the case 30+ years ago. Every person I know with terrible credit has access to all of the things you mentioned. China's system is based on things like your friends and your opinions of the government and is just a way to control the people. It's also mandated by the government. Last I checked, Equifax can't put me in jail for a bad credit score. Totally different and scary.

Shivetya 8y ago

You can still buy a phone with cash or prepay. the only jobs I have ever seen restricted by your credit history are those with access to cash or government jobs requiring a security clearance; worked for a rent-a-cop company and our government positioned guards were in some cases off the job for most misdemeanors. Renting, wholly up to the renter but most rely on the deposit and no violent criminal history. Some rentals now even maintain the utilities which actually makes it easier for those with poor credit to move in. The deposits required if you have shorted a public utility can be severe when starting new service. Now with regards to this I have to ask, why should someone renting a home not be allowed to question the renters ability or willingness to pay the rent? Now, China's system would basically be the equivalent in the US of losing your driving license on top of the ability to travel through most public venues requiring and id, all done at the behest of the government and not individuals. That is is pure dystopian/1984 style oppression. Hell, that is, here, wear a yellow star type stuff and needs to be stomped out

throwawayt5poi 8y ago
From my understanding, China’s system is actually similar, just that the media makes it more dystopian. These are for wealthy debtors that refuse to pay. And they are only barred from the high speed rail and not regular trains. The idea is to force them to pay fines that they can easily pay, but refuse too. Once paid, their credit score can start building up again.
- spectramax 8y ago
  In fact, it’s much worse than what media portrays. Chinese media has no spine and there is no such thing as free press in China. What you hear from outside media is a small glimpse of a rising dystopian one party system. See the following article for a detailed analysis of the credit score system and its ramifications: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/08/business/china-surveillance-technology.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/08/business/china-surveillan...

umvi 8y ago

Every time I see one of these "but actually America is the real dystopia" comments I remind myself that in the USA the government won't kidnap you to secretly execute you and harvest your organs.