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This is such a weird thing. Amazon gets the tax gifts that they desired and then pull out of NYC because of bad PR. Now business leaders, the governor, and the

This is such a weird thing. Amazon gets the tax gifts that they desired and then pull out of NYC because of bad PR. Now business leaders, the governor, and the mayor, are trying to get them to come back? You want a company back that leaves because of hurt feelings? Maybe I'm missing something.

wdewind 8y ago
https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/open-letter-new-york-state-budget-director-robert-mujica-regarding-amazon https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/open-letter-new-york-state-...
- tomnipotent 8y ago
  I lost a lot of respect for AOC from this fiasco, she demonstrated nothing but intense ignorance and silly rhetoric despite an otherwise decent early track record.
  - DSingularity 8y ago
    Please detail.
    - tomnipotent 8y ago
      She was the loudest voice in this contest and a lot of influence on the public perception of the project. Her Twitter comments about the $3B tax break for Amazon were pure uneducated FUD, pretending NY was giving Amazon money that could be somehow better "spent" on other projects like education (except you can't spend a tax break). She further exaggerated news stories about Amazon's treatment of fulfillment center workers without bothering to mention that current conditions for existing FC's are much worse than what Amazon brings to the table.
      - fourstar 8y ago
        That’s literally her platform. She’s an inexperienced socialist dem. Not sure why you expected anything different.
    - emmelaich 8y ago
      Details of the intense ignorance or the decent early track record? Because I'd be interested in hearing about the latter.
    - wdewind 8y ago
      "If we were willing to give away $3 billion for this deal, we could invest those $3 billion in our district ourselves if we wanted to. We could hire out more teachers. We can fix our subways. We can put a lot of people to work for that money if we wanted to,” Ocasio-Cortez said. "Incredibly, I have heard city and state elected officials who were opponents of the project claim that Amazon was getting $3 billion in government subsidies that could have been better spent on housing or transportation. This is either a blatant untruth or fundamental ignorance of basic math by a group of elected officials. The city and state 'gave' Amazon nothing. Amazon was to build their headquarters with union jobs and pay the city and state $27 billion in revenues. The city, through existing as-of-right tax credits, and the state through Excelsior Tax credits - a program approved by the same legislators railing against it - would provide up to $3 billion in tax relief, IF Amazon created the 25,000-40,000 jobs and thus generated $27 billion in revenue. You don't need to be the State's Budget Director to know that a nine to one return on your investment is a winner."
      - DSingularity 8y ago
        Thank you.
  - TaylorAlexander 8y ago
    What did she say?
  - iscrewyou 8y ago
    A company that made boatloads of profit, not revenue, profit, wanted tax breaks was opposed by someone who cares for the average joe. Not the software developer. The guy working at the deli. Don’t be surprised. It really sucks how amazon played the game. If they agreed to no tax breaks, all that is mentioned in the link above would be headlines instead. But no. They never wanted to commit to that. Both sides are at fault and the general public suffered because of politics.
    - tomnipotent 8y ago
      Except that tax breaks were astronomically dwarfed by the additional tax income that would have been created. She didn't care about the "average joe", she cared about her image and grandstanding to score political points.
      - nerdponx 8y ago
        How do you know it would be less tax income than would be created by other businesses moving into LIC? You don't -- no one does, because AFAIK that analysis hasn't been done yet.
        wdewind 8y ago
        There is no other comparable plan of this scale, so there is no meaningful way to do this analysis. "In my 23 years in the State Capitol, three as Budget Director, Amazon was the single greatest economic development opportunity we have had...For a sense of scale, the next largest economic development project the state has completed was for approximately 1,000 jobs."
        nerdponx 8y ago
        All the more reason to spend the extra time and effort making sure we understand the effects.
    - subpixel 8y ago
      You don't need to work at the deli. I work in tech, live in the neighborhood, and oppose Amazon landing here.
  - ahmedalsudani 8y ago
    Frankly, the problem is not AOC. It's the rest of the country. Small businesses can't get the tax break Amazon is demanding. Why should we allow big businesses to play by a different rulebook? The only reason Amazon can get away with it is that other jurisdictions are prepared to debase themselves for the economic benefit Amazon brings. In effect, big businesses reap the rewards of living in our society without shouldering the burdens. (Not even going to go into the "race to the bottom" that is created or the ugly optics of parading HQ2. Both warrant a discussion of their own). Not saying that the way things turned out is ideal, but I lost much more respect for Amazon than I did "progressives". I say this as a firm believer in free markets and limited government. [To the people downvoting my comment or the children comment I'm engaging with: please join the conversation with your voice instead of stifling our discussion. Downvoting is not how you express disagreement]
    - skookumchuck 8y ago
      "Why should we allow big businesses to play by a different rulebook?" Quantity discount. "without shouldering the burdens" Amazon would still pay plenty of taxes there, as well as their well-paid employees. It would have been of enormous net benefit to NYC.
      - ahmedalsudani 8y ago
        You're not wrong, but in my view, this argument is exactly what the problem is. Quantity discount is OK when you're buying food or bus tickets. Not when you're paying taxes. Notice I did not say that Amazon would not be paying taxes or that it would not be a net benefit for New York. It is however a detriment to small businesses across the country and to our society as a whole. It's harmful in a similar way to how selling your mother's jewellery for a crack hit is harmful. the local high is not worth the long-term effects for New York or society.
        skookumchuck 8y ago
        Why isn't it equally bad for individual car buyers to pay more than the quantity car purchaser? I fail to see how 25,000-40,000 high paying green jobs has any relevance to a crack hit.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- lancesells 8y ago
  Thanks. While I'm ambivalent to Amazon in NYC reading this reminds me of Wal-Mart and their tax incentives to open stores in communities to "bring in thousands of jobs". Is there more thought to this than the financial incentive of a 9x return on taxes?
nerdponx 8y ago
business leaders, the governor, and the mayor Do not really represent the people of NYC or NY state. The Governor won a "lesser of two evils" vote after a hilarious sham of a primary. The mayor is not widely liked, either, and has a history of cowing to special interests. Business leaders, who cares?
smokeyj 8y ago
> You want a company back that leaves because of hurt feelings? Maybe I'm missing something. So now your feelings are hurt, to the point you're willing to turn away cash? Politicians who turn away jobs so they can virtue signal on Twitter should be deeply ashamed of themselves. They're either malicious, economically illiterate, or very likely both. Now the adult in the room needs to fix what AOC and her minions have been up to.
FakeComments 8y ago
That’s kind of a mischaracterization of why Amazon left: it looks like people were getting ready to oppose their plans and introduce bureaucratic roadblocks. Why take a PR beating for an unsure thing that looks increasingly likely to fail, and become the center of a political circus? That’s definitely not NY doing it’s end of the proposal. A business needs stability and safety to plan and grow. It’s unclear why Amazon would want to fight NYC to be in NYC after NYC threw up roadblocks to NYC’s proposal actually happening.
- throwaway2048 8y ago
  It wasn't NYC's proposal, it was NY state's proposal, much of the city wanted nothing to do with it.
skookumchuck 8y ago
I doubt it had anything to do with hurt feelings. Clearly, the opposition was gearing up to cause a lot of problems and delays for Amazon. And besides, why go somewhere where people hate you?

wdewind 8y ago

https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/open-letter-new-york-state-budget-director-robert-mujica-regarding-amazon https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/open-letter-new-york-state-...

tomnipotent 8y ago
I lost a lot of respect for AOC from this fiasco, she demonstrated nothing but intense ignorance and silly rhetoric despite an otherwise decent early track record.
- DSingularity 8y ago
  Please detail.
  - tomnipotent 8y ago
    She was the loudest voice in this contest and a lot of influence on the public perception of the project. Her Twitter comments about the $3B tax break for Amazon were pure uneducated FUD, pretending NY was giving Amazon money that could be somehow better "spent" on other projects like education (except you can't spend a tax break). She further exaggerated news stories about Amazon's treatment of fulfillment center workers without bothering to mention that current conditions for existing FC's are much worse than what Amazon brings to the table.
    - fourstar 8y ago
      That’s literally her platform. She’s an inexperienced socialist dem. Not sure why you expected anything different.
  - emmelaich 8y ago
    Details of the intense ignorance or the decent early track record? Because I'd be interested in hearing about the latter.
  - wdewind 8y ago
    "If we were willing to give away $3 billion for this deal, we could invest those $3 billion in our district ourselves if we wanted to. We could hire out more teachers. We can fix our subways. We can put a lot of people to work for that money if we wanted to,” Ocasio-Cortez said. "Incredibly, I have heard city and state elected officials who were opponents of the project claim that Amazon was getting $3 billion in government subsidies that could have been better spent on housing or transportation. This is either a blatant untruth or fundamental ignorance of basic math by a group of elected officials. The city and state 'gave' Amazon nothing. Amazon was to build their headquarters with union jobs and pay the city and state $27 billion in revenues. The city, through existing as-of-right tax credits, and the state through Excelsior Tax credits - a program approved by the same legislators railing against it - would provide up to $3 billion in tax relief, IF Amazon created the 25,000-40,000 jobs and thus generated $27 billion in revenue. You don't need to be the State's Budget Director to know that a nine to one return on your investment is a winner."
    - DSingularity 8y ago
      Thank you.
- TaylorAlexander 8y ago
  What did she say?
- iscrewyou 8y ago
  A company that made boatloads of profit, not revenue, profit, wanted tax breaks was opposed by someone who cares for the average joe. Not the software developer. The guy working at the deli. Don’t be surprised. It really sucks how amazon played the game. If they agreed to no tax breaks, all that is mentioned in the link above would be headlines instead. But no. They never wanted to commit to that. Both sides are at fault and the general public suffered because of politics.
  - tomnipotent 8y ago
    Except that tax breaks were astronomically dwarfed by the additional tax income that would have been created. She didn't care about the "average joe", she cared about her image and grandstanding to score political points.
    - nerdponx 8y ago
      How do you know it would be less tax income than would be created by other businesses moving into LIC? You don't -- no one does, because AFAIK that analysis hasn't been done yet.
      - wdewind 8y ago
        There is no other comparable plan of this scale, so there is no meaningful way to do this analysis. "In my 23 years in the State Capitol, three as Budget Director, Amazon was the single greatest economic development opportunity we have had...For a sense of scale, the next largest economic development project the state has completed was for approximately 1,000 jobs."
        nerdponx 8y ago
        All the more reason to spend the extra time and effort making sure we understand the effects.
  - subpixel 8y ago
    You don't need to work at the deli. I work in tech, live in the neighborhood, and oppose Amazon landing here.
- ahmedalsudani 8y ago
  Frankly, the problem is not AOC. It's the rest of the country. Small businesses can't get the tax break Amazon is demanding. Why should we allow big businesses to play by a different rulebook? The only reason Amazon can get away with it is that other jurisdictions are prepared to debase themselves for the economic benefit Amazon brings. In effect, big businesses reap the rewards of living in our society without shouldering the burdens. (Not even going to go into the "race to the bottom" that is created or the ugly optics of parading HQ2. Both warrant a discussion of their own). Not saying that the way things turned out is ideal, but I lost much more respect for Amazon than I did "progressives". I say this as a firm believer in free markets and limited government. [To the people downvoting my comment or the children comment I'm engaging with: please join the conversation with your voice instead of stifling our discussion. Downvoting is not how you express disagreement]
  - skookumchuck 8y ago
    "Why should we allow big businesses to play by a different rulebook?" Quantity discount. "without shouldering the burdens" Amazon would still pay plenty of taxes there, as well as their well-paid employees. It would have been of enormous net benefit to NYC.
    - ahmedalsudani 8y ago
      You're not wrong, but in my view, this argument is exactly what the problem is. Quantity discount is OK when you're buying food or bus tickets. Not when you're paying taxes. Notice I did not say that Amazon would not be paying taxes or that it would not be a net benefit for New York. It is however a detriment to small businesses across the country and to our society as a whole. It's harmful in a similar way to how selling your mother's jewellery for a crack hit is harmful. the local high is not worth the long-term effects for New York or society.
      - skookumchuck 8y ago
        Why isn't it equally bad for individual car buyers to pay more than the quantity car purchaser? I fail to see how 25,000-40,000 high paying green jobs has any relevance to a crack hit.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
lancesells 8y ago
Thanks. While I'm ambivalent to Amazon in NYC reading this reminds me of Wal-Mart and their tax incentives to open stores in communities to "bring in thousands of jobs". Is there more thought to this than the financial incentive of a 9x return on taxes?

nerdponx 8y ago

business leaders, the governor, and the mayor Do not really represent the people of NYC or NY state. The Governor won a "lesser of two evils" vote after a hilarious sham of a primary. The mayor is not widely liked, either, and has a history of cowing to special interests. Business leaders, who cares?

smokeyj 8y ago

> You want a company back that leaves because of hurt feelings? Maybe I'm missing something. So now your feelings are hurt, to the point you're willing to turn away cash? Politicians who turn away jobs so they can virtue signal on Twitter should be deeply ashamed of themselves. They're either malicious, economically illiterate, or very likely both. Now the adult in the room needs to fix what AOC and her minions have been up to.

FakeComments 8y ago

That’s kind of a mischaracterization of why Amazon left: it looks like people were getting ready to oppose their plans and introduce bureaucratic roadblocks. Why take a PR beating for an unsure thing that looks increasingly likely to fail, and become the center of a political circus? That’s definitely not NY doing it’s end of the proposal. A business needs stability and safety to plan and grow. It’s unclear why Amazon would want to fight NYC to be in NYC after NYC threw up roadblocks to NYC’s proposal actually happening.

throwaway2048 8y ago
It wasn't NYC's proposal, it was NY state's proposal, much of the city wanted nothing to do with it.

skookumchuck 8y ago

I doubt it had anything to do with hurt feelings. Clearly, the opposition was gearing up to cause a lot of problems and delays for Amazon. And besides, why go somewhere where people hate you?