8 ms·

Cuomo Speaks With Bezos, Hints of ‘Other Ways’ to Clear Path for Amazon’s Return

24 points by TuringNYC 8y ago

Alex3917 8y ago
If LIC doesn't want it then they should should deck over the Inwood rail yard and put it there instead. There's plenty of space to build the entire campus, as many residential buildings, parks, schools, and restaurants as are needed, and it's already within walking distance of some of the nicest places in the city.
- nerdponx 8y ago
  Let's be clear: there's nothing wrong with Amazon building a campus in LIC. In fact it's a good location for it. The problem is that Amazon's end of the deal involved a lot of ill-defined promises, and their obvious unwillingness to negotiate was a sign of intent to strongarm the city into further concessions. Even if, on paper, it was a financial loss to have Amazon pull out, it sets a strong and positive precedent for New York and other cities across the country.
  - smokeyj 8y ago
    > The problem is that Amazon's end of the deal involved a lot of ill-defined promises For example?
    - nerdponx 8y ago
      1. The $27 billion number assumes no other development in the land under consideration, which just makes no sense. Nobody to my knowledge has calculated the opportunity cost, and therefore the net benefit, of this deal. 2. We don't know actual the distribution of salaries 3. Beyond the existing Future Engineer program, there is no specific commitment to training and hiring from within NYC (instead of importing talent), beyond a $5 million promise to do.. something? in the Queensbridge Houses. 4. We don't have any specific commitments to infrastructure development, again, beyond than a rough dollar amount. 5. Absolutely no word on handling externalities and market distortions imposed on housing markets in nearby neighborhoods.
      - wdewind 8y ago
        > 1. The $27 billion number assumes no other development in the land under consideration, which just makes no sense. Nobody to my knowledge has calculated the opportunity cost, and therefore the net benefit, of this deal. There is no other deal even approximating this one in scale, and so there is no way to do this analysis. The alternative is much, much slower jobs, and thus tax revenue, growth. "In my 23 years in the State Capitol, three as Budget Director, Amazon was the single greatest economic development opportunity we have had...For a sense of scale, the next largest economic development project the state has completed was for approximately 1,000 jobs." > 2. We don't know actual the distribution of salaries Honestly, I don't really think this is a legitimate issue. We know that they are overwhelmingly white collar technology jobs at an average of $150,000. It is extremely unlikely we'd get any surprises here and it's hard to understand what they'd even look like (5000 managers and 20,000 janitors?). > 3. Beyond the existing Future Engineer program, there is no specific commitment to training and hiring from within NYC (instead of importing talent), beyond a $5 million promise to do.. something? in the Queensbridge Houses. These aren't requirements we put on any other company going through the Excelsior Jobs Program. New York City is a melting pot city. What makes us great is that we have people from all around the world here. One of the prime things we want to do as a city to make it a great place to live is make it a place people want to move to work. If people aren't moving here to work than New York City is in bad shape. > 4. We don't have any specific commitments to infrastructure development, again, beyond than a rough dollar amount. Beyond $27 billion dollars in additional tax revenue. If we can't deploy that money to adequately fix our infrastructure problems it's difficult to see how that is Amazon's fault, or how any other company would do better. In fact: assuming we were able to get anything close to the level of scale we'd get from the Amazon deal from smaller companies we wouldn't be able to get any additional commitments from them beyond the discounted tax revenue, so it's difficult to understand where this expectation comes from. They make no contribution to infrastructure other than the massive one that the law already says they have to make. > 5. Absolutely no word on handling externalities and market distortions imposed on housing markets in nearby neighborhoods. Again, it's difficult to imagine the alternate reality you want to live in here, but it seems to be not growing the city.
- genieyclo 8y ago
  I mean, they already closed down La Marina...
turtlegrids 8y ago
I wish NY the best here.
- komali2 8y ago
  But it's New York City lol, it has jobs
  - akhilcacharya 8y ago
    To be clear, most places without jobs already aren't attractive to employers.
  - jimmy1 8y ago
    It has yuppie jobs and banker jobs. The middle class is deserting the place, and has been for quite some time. You need a healthy middle class. That HQ would have had quite a few tech jobs naturally, but also admin jobs, support jobs, and all the other middle class jobs and small businesses that will benefit around it. You would need construction, infrastructure, and facilities jobs for years to come to support such a large project. So on and so forth.
    - eli_gottlieb 8y ago
      Kendall Square here in the Boston area doesn't seem to have a whole lot of middle-class anything. Even the pizzeria is bougie.
      - jimmy1 8y ago
        As I learned the hard way, you probably don't see them because they are too busy working 2-3 jobs making ends meet, or they were forced out of their neighborhoods due to gentrification .
      - emmelaich 8y ago
        I thought the middle-claas was the bourgoisie. (I had to look-up what "bougie" meant)
lancesells 8y ago
This is such a weird thing. Amazon gets the tax gifts that they desired and then pull out of NYC because of bad PR. Now business leaders, the governor, and the mayor, are trying to get them to come back? You want a company back that leaves because of hurt feelings? Maybe I'm missing something.
- wdewind 8y ago
  https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/open-letter-new-york-state-budget-director-robert-mujica-regarding-amazon https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/open-letter-new-york-state-...
  - tomnipotent 8y ago
    I lost a lot of respect for AOC from this fiasco, she demonstrated nothing but intense ignorance and silly rhetoric despite an otherwise decent early track record.
    - DSingularity 8y ago
      Please detail.
      - tomnipotent 8y ago
        She was the loudest voice in this contest and a lot of influence on the public perception of the project. Her Twitter comments about the $3B tax break for Amazon were pure uneducated FUD, pretending NY was giving Amazon money that could be somehow better "spent" on other projects like education (except you can't spend a tax break). She further exaggerated news stories about Amazon's treatment of fulfillment center workers without bothering to mention that current conditions for existing FC's are much worse than what Amazon brings to the table.
        fourstar 8y ago
        That’s literally her platform. She’s an inexperienced socialist dem. Not sure why you expected anything different.
dmode 8y ago
It seems to me that Amazon doesn't really need a HQ2.5. That's the primary reason they pulled out. You don't really pull out because of a vocal minority. Has there been a project that doesn't have vocal opposition ?
- simple_phrases 8y ago
  > You don't really pull out because of a vocal minority Exactly. This was a show from the beginning and still is.
- nerfhammer 8y ago
  supposedly someone who was stridently anti-Amazon was nominated to some key position on some zoning board where he would be able to block anything. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/04/nyregion/amazon-hq2-board-veto.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/04/nyregion/amazon-hq2-board...
m0zg 8y ago
"Sometimes you have to walk away" (tm). That $3B in tax breaks is about to turn into $4B, much to the chagrin of one Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.
writepub 8y ago
It is refreshing to see Cuomo actively woo Amazon back, despite direct opposition and PR blitzkrieg-ing from the likes of Alexandira Ocasio Cortez. The state of NY & NYC could use the projected 25,000 jobs (at an average of $150K), $4 billion wages, and $12 billion in new economic activity which will directly feed the state tax coffers.
- nerdponx 8y ago
  The city, no. The state, sure. Let's also set some things straight. First, those numbers only make sense if you assume the land in LIC would remain undeveloped, and the city's $3 bn left unspent over 10 years. Obviously there will be other development in the area. LIC is already white-collar yuppie colony and tech companies are still coming to NYC in search of talent. Heck, Amazon already had plans to move to the city. Second, "average of $150K" is meaningless. Does that include or exclude Bezos' salary? What's the median number? What's the 25th percentile? Third, how many of those jobs will go to New Yorkers, versus be imported from other cities? What is the cost to other residents? Who, if anyone, will need to be compensated? Nobody has done any of those calculations, to my knowledge. Fourth, has Amazon made any concrete commitments to transit development on paper? The list goes on. There's a lot more at play here than the "sticker price". Also leave AOC out of it. Blocking this deal wasn't her idea, she's just the one who posts on Twitter too much. Look to more reasonable (and powerful) politicians like Michael Gianaris.
  - writepub 8y ago
    > Second, "average of $150K" is meaningless. Does that include or exclude Bezos' salary? Why would anyone include Bezos' salary among the freshly minted 25,000 jobs! This is such a straw-man! > Third, how many of those jobs will go to New Yorkers Who says there's an agenda to not employ qualified New Yorkers? Why is it criminal for other Americans to get those jobs, if qualified? Is there some NY jingoism at play here that Amazon and the US are unawares of? It is a federal crime to discriminate employment against state/city residency! > Fourth, has Amazon made any concrete commitments to transit development on paper? That is expressly the job of elected officials, the sensible of which are actively wooing Amazon for the increased tax income, that can then go towards transit, and other public programs. > Also leave AOC out of it. Is AOC some protected class among politicians, whose demagoguery is apparently off limits for criticism? She has actively pitchforked outrage on the matter, and is absolutely a part of the discussion.
zxcvvcxz 8y ago
I just need one person to explain to me: why should Amazon get better tax breaks and deals than the existing local businesses? Someone just tell me.
- xxxanony 8y ago
  "Incredibly, I have heard city and state elected officials who were opponents of the project claim that Amazon was getting $3 billion in government subsidies that could have been better spent on housing or transportation. This is either a blatant untruth or fundamental ignorance of basic math by a group of elected officials. The city and state 'gave' Amazon nothing. Amazon was to build their headquarters with union jobs and pay the city and state $27 billion in revenues. The city, through existing as-of-right tax credits, and the state through Excelsior Tax credits - a program approved by the same legislators railing against it - would provide up to $3 billion in tax relief, IF Amazon created the 25,000-40,000 jobs and thus generated $27 billion in revenue. You don't need to be the State's Budget Director to know that a nine to one return on your investment is a winner."
  - drugme 8y ago
    Sorry, but this is just spin. Of course the city was giving them something - that's what the $3b in "tax relief" was about.
- gfosco 8y ago
  Things get better with scale. If an existing local business could create 25-40,000 new jobs and generate $27 billion in new tax revenue, they'd also be able to get a $3 billion dollar tax break.
  - zxcvvcxz 8y ago
    Ah, so you like winner-take-all economics where those who are already winning have it easier to keep winning. Gotcha.
- skookumchuck 8y ago
  Quantity discount. For example, if you buy 10 cars from a dealer you're going to get a better per-car deal than if you buy 1.
Traster 8y ago
This just seems like such a messy clusterfuck for Amazon. Their stupid competition did a great job of raising awareness of sweatheart corporate deals, and they gave the left a great stalking horse in the run up to 2020, and they failed to even get the capacity they wanted! The outcome of this process is incredibly bad for Amazon. Seemingly what they achieved was a deal with Virginia. Virginia didn't offer the best incentives but Amazon needed to be there for the lobbying opportunities. Their second HQ plan has collapsed in NY and now they have to re-plan their expansion. Meanwhile the process seems to have been tailor made to damage their corporate image and create a movement against corporate welfare. Now this drags on with it being obvious that Amazon can't go to NY now, but they're still getting headlines to remind everyone of how badly they mismanaged this process.
- refurb 8y ago
  Really? I'd say this reflects more poorly on NYC and their politicians than Amazon. Every other city that bid for HQ2 would have likely received them with open arms.
  - ijpoijpoihpiuoh 8y ago
    Companies kinda need to be in NYC if they want access to the talent pool there. So if NYC gains a reputation of being hostile to big tax breaks for companies, that's not going to really change corporate behavior, except in the desired direction. And as for what individual people who don't live in NYC think about the city, it really doesn't matter. It is and will for the foreseeable future remain the preeminent metropolis in the United States. What someone who lives in St. Louis or Atlanta thinks about it is of no importance.
    - refurb 8y ago
      So if NYC gains a reputation of being hostile to big tax breaks for companies, that's not going to really change corporate behavior, except in the desired direction. Really? Because I'd say this example exactly proves it changes corporate behavior. Don't forget the US is full of cities that are now shells of their former selfs. I'm sure they never felt they need to be "open for business" either. NYC isn't going away, but it wasn't that long ago it was viewed as a bit of a "crap hole".

24 points by TuringNYC 8y ago

If LIC doesn't want it then they should should deck over the Inwood rail yard and put it there instead. There's plenty of space to build the entire campus, as many residential buildings, parks, schools, and restaurants as are needed, and it's already within walking distance of some of the nicest places in the city.

nerdponx 8y ago
Let's be clear: there's nothing wrong with Amazon building a campus in LIC. In fact it's a good location for it. The problem is that Amazon's end of the deal involved a lot of ill-defined promises, and their obvious unwillingness to negotiate was a sign of intent to strongarm the city into further concessions. Even if, on paper, it was a financial loss to have Amazon pull out, it sets a strong and positive precedent for New York and other cities across the country.
- smokeyj 8y ago
  > The problem is that Amazon's end of the deal involved a lot of ill-defined promises For example?
  - nerdponx 8y ago
    1. The $27 billion number assumes no other development in the land under consideration, which just makes no sense. Nobody to my knowledge has calculated the opportunity cost, and therefore the net benefit, of this deal. 2. We don't know actual the distribution of salaries 3. Beyond the existing Future Engineer program, there is no specific commitment to training and hiring from within NYC (instead of importing talent), beyond a $5 million promise to do.. something? in the Queensbridge Houses. 4. We don't have any specific commitments to infrastructure development, again, beyond than a rough dollar amount. 5. Absolutely no word on handling externalities and market distortions imposed on housing markets in nearby neighborhoods.
    - wdewind 8y ago
      > 1. The $27 billion number assumes no other development in the land under consideration, which just makes no sense. Nobody to my knowledge has calculated the opportunity cost, and therefore the net benefit, of this deal. There is no other deal even approximating this one in scale, and so there is no way to do this analysis. The alternative is much, much slower jobs, and thus tax revenue, growth. "In my 23 years in the State Capitol, three as Budget Director, Amazon was the single greatest economic development opportunity we have had...For a sense of scale, the next largest economic development project the state has completed was for approximately 1,000 jobs." > 2. We don't know actual the distribution of salaries Honestly, I don't really think this is a legitimate issue. We know that they are overwhelmingly white collar technology jobs at an average of $150,000. It is extremely unlikely we'd get any surprises here and it's hard to understand what they'd even look like (5000 managers and 20,000 janitors?). > 3. Beyond the existing Future Engineer program, there is no specific commitment to training and hiring from within NYC (instead of importing talent), beyond a $5 million promise to do.. something? in the Queensbridge Houses. These aren't requirements we put on any other company going through the Excelsior Jobs Program. New York City is a melting pot city. What makes us great is that we have people from all around the world here. One of the prime things we want to do as a city to make it a great place to live is make it a place people want to move to work. If people aren't moving here to work than New York City is in bad shape. > 4. We don't have any specific commitments to infrastructure development, again, beyond than a rough dollar amount. Beyond $27 billion dollars in additional tax revenue. If we can't deploy that money to adequately fix our infrastructure problems it's difficult to see how that is Amazon's fault, or how any other company would do better. In fact: assuming we were able to get anything close to the level of scale we'd get from the Amazon deal from smaller companies we wouldn't be able to get any additional commitments from them beyond the discounted tax revenue, so it's difficult to understand where this expectation comes from. They make no contribution to infrastructure other than the massive one that the law already says they have to make. > 5. Absolutely no word on handling externalities and market distortions imposed on housing markets in nearby neighborhoods. Again, it's difficult to imagine the alternate reality you want to live in here, but it seems to be not growing the city.
genieyclo 8y ago
I mean, they already closed down La Marina...

turtlegrids 8y ago

I wish NY the best here.

komali2 8y ago
But it's New York City lol, it has jobs
- akhilcacharya 8y ago
  To be clear, most places without jobs already aren't attractive to employers.
- jimmy1 8y ago
  It has yuppie jobs and banker jobs. The middle class is deserting the place, and has been for quite some time. You need a healthy middle class. That HQ would have had quite a few tech jobs naturally, but also admin jobs, support jobs, and all the other middle class jobs and small businesses that will benefit around it. You would need construction, infrastructure, and facilities jobs for years to come to support such a large project. So on and so forth.
  - eli_gottlieb 8y ago
    Kendall Square here in the Boston area doesn't seem to have a whole lot of middle-class anything. Even the pizzeria is bougie.
    - jimmy1 8y ago
      As I learned the hard way, you probably don't see them because they are too busy working 2-3 jobs making ends meet, or they were forced out of their neighborhoods due to gentrification .
    - emmelaich 8y ago
      I thought the middle-claas was the bourgoisie. (I had to look-up what "bougie" meant)

lancesells 8y ago

This is such a weird thing. Amazon gets the tax gifts that they desired and then pull out of NYC because of bad PR. Now business leaders, the governor, and the mayor, are trying to get them to come back? You want a company back that leaves because of hurt feelings? Maybe I'm missing something.

wdewind 8y ago
https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/open-letter-new-york-state-budget-director-robert-mujica-regarding-amazon https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/open-letter-new-york-state-...
- tomnipotent 8y ago
  I lost a lot of respect for AOC from this fiasco, she demonstrated nothing but intense ignorance and silly rhetoric despite an otherwise decent early track record.
  - DSingularity 8y ago
    Please detail.
    - tomnipotent 8y ago
      She was the loudest voice in this contest and a lot of influence on the public perception of the project. Her Twitter comments about the $3B tax break for Amazon were pure uneducated FUD, pretending NY was giving Amazon money that could be somehow better "spent" on other projects like education (except you can't spend a tax break). She further exaggerated news stories about Amazon's treatment of fulfillment center workers without bothering to mention that current conditions for existing FC's are much worse than what Amazon brings to the table.
      - fourstar 8y ago
        That’s literally her platform. She’s an inexperienced socialist dem. Not sure why you expected anything different.

dmode 8y ago

It seems to me that Amazon doesn't really need a HQ2.5. That's the primary reason they pulled out. You don't really pull out because of a vocal minority. Has there been a project that doesn't have vocal opposition ?

simple_phrases 8y ago
> You don't really pull out because of a vocal minority Exactly. This was a show from the beginning and still is.
nerfhammer 8y ago
supposedly someone who was stridently anti-Amazon was nominated to some key position on some zoning board where he would be able to block anything. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/04/nyregion/amazon-hq2-board-veto.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/04/nyregion/amazon-hq2-board...

m0zg 8y ago

"Sometimes you have to walk away" (tm). That $3B in tax breaks is about to turn into $4B, much to the chagrin of one Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.

writepub 8y ago

It is refreshing to see Cuomo actively woo Amazon back, despite direct opposition and PR blitzkrieg-ing from the likes of Alexandira Ocasio Cortez. The state of NY & NYC could use the projected 25,000 jobs (at an average of $150K), $4 billion wages, and $12 billion in new economic activity which will directly feed the state tax coffers.

nerdponx 8y ago
The city, no. The state, sure. Let's also set some things straight. First, those numbers only make sense if you assume the land in LIC would remain undeveloped, and the city's $3 bn left unspent over 10 years. Obviously there will be other development in the area. LIC is already white-collar yuppie colony and tech companies are still coming to NYC in search of talent. Heck, Amazon already had plans to move to the city. Second, "average of $150K" is meaningless. Does that include or exclude Bezos' salary? What's the median number? What's the 25th percentile? Third, how many of those jobs will go to New Yorkers, versus be imported from other cities? What is the cost to other residents? Who, if anyone, will need to be compensated? Nobody has done any of those calculations, to my knowledge. Fourth, has Amazon made any concrete commitments to transit development on paper? The list goes on. There's a lot more at play here than the "sticker price". Also leave AOC out of it. Blocking this deal wasn't her idea, she's just the one who posts on Twitter too much. Look to more reasonable (and powerful) politicians like Michael Gianaris.
- writepub 8y ago
  > Second, "average of $150K" is meaningless. Does that include or exclude Bezos' salary? Why would anyone include Bezos' salary among the freshly minted 25,000 jobs! This is such a straw-man! > Third, how many of those jobs will go to New Yorkers Who says there's an agenda to not employ qualified New Yorkers? Why is it criminal for other Americans to get those jobs, if qualified? Is there some NY jingoism at play here that Amazon and the US are unawares of? It is a federal crime to discriminate employment against state/city residency! > Fourth, has Amazon made any concrete commitments to transit development on paper? That is expressly the job of elected officials, the sensible of which are actively wooing Amazon for the increased tax income, that can then go towards transit, and other public programs. > Also leave AOC out of it. Is AOC some protected class among politicians, whose demagoguery is apparently off limits for criticism? She has actively pitchforked outrage on the matter, and is absolutely a part of the discussion.

zxcvvcxz 8y ago

I just need one person to explain to me: why should Amazon get better tax breaks and deals than the existing local businesses? Someone just tell me.

xxxanony 8y ago
"Incredibly, I have heard city and state elected officials who were opponents of the project claim that Amazon was getting $3 billion in government subsidies that could have been better spent on housing or transportation. This is either a blatant untruth or fundamental ignorance of basic math by a group of elected officials. The city and state 'gave' Amazon nothing. Amazon was to build their headquarters with union jobs and pay the city and state $27 billion in revenues. The city, through existing as-of-right tax credits, and the state through Excelsior Tax credits - a program approved by the same legislators railing against it - would provide up to $3 billion in tax relief, IF Amazon created the 25,000-40,000 jobs and thus generated $27 billion in revenue. You don't need to be the State's Budget Director to know that a nine to one return on your investment is a winner."
- drugme 8y ago
  Sorry, but this is just spin. Of course the city was giving them something - that's what the $3b in "tax relief" was about.
gfosco 8y ago
Things get better with scale. If an existing local business could create 25-40,000 new jobs and generate $27 billion in new tax revenue, they'd also be able to get a $3 billion dollar tax break.
- zxcvvcxz 8y ago
  Ah, so you like winner-take-all economics where those who are already winning have it easier to keep winning. Gotcha.
skookumchuck 8y ago
Quantity discount. For example, if you buy 10 cars from a dealer you're going to get a better per-car deal than if you buy 1.

Traster 8y ago

This just seems like such a messy clusterfuck for Amazon. Their stupid competition did a great job of raising awareness of sweatheart corporate deals, and they gave the left a great stalking horse in the run up to 2020, and they failed to even get the capacity they wanted! The outcome of this process is incredibly bad for Amazon. Seemingly what they achieved was a deal with Virginia. Virginia didn't offer the best incentives but Amazon needed to be there for the lobbying opportunities. Their second HQ plan has collapsed in NY and now they have to re-plan their expansion. Meanwhile the process seems to have been tailor made to damage their corporate image and create a movement against corporate welfare. Now this drags on with it being obvious that Amazon can't go to NY now, but they're still getting headlines to remind everyone of how badly they mismanaged this process.

refurb 8y ago
Really? I'd say this reflects more poorly on NYC and their politicians than Amazon. Every other city that bid for HQ2 would have likely received them with open arms.
- ijpoijpoihpiuoh 8y ago
  Companies kinda need to be in NYC if they want access to the talent pool there. So if NYC gains a reputation of being hostile to big tax breaks for companies, that's not going to really change corporate behavior, except in the desired direction. And as for what individual people who don't live in NYC think about the city, it really doesn't matter. It is and will for the foreseeable future remain the preeminent metropolis in the United States. What someone who lives in St. Louis or Atlanta thinks about it is of no importance.
  - refurb 8y ago
    So if NYC gains a reputation of being hostile to big tax breaks for companies, that's not going to really change corporate behavior, except in the desired direction. Really? Because I'd say this example exactly proves it changes corporate behavior. Don't forget the US is full of cities that are now shells of their former selfs. I'm sure they never felt they need to be "open for business" either. NYC isn't going away, but it wasn't that long ago it was viewed as a bit of a "crap hole".