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Ask HN: So why am I still robocalled?

18 points by rhacker 8y ago

It's 2019, the do not call list was created in 1991. I get about 25 robocalls per day.

BA4gDY-cqjsEPWn 8y ago
Same reason Google/Facebook doesn't fix ad fraud. ;-)
appsonify 8y ago
This is why I use 2nd Line. the voice quality is shit but its free so.
AnimalMuppet 8y ago
Because nobody goes to jail for violating the do not call list. People do get fined... but you have to find them first.
- WorldMaker 8y ago
  …and the fines have to be big enough to matter, otherwise the occasional fine is just one more line of overhead in the project budget.
- gesman 8y ago
  Fines will have to be big enough and laws strict enough. Then the crowd hunt will ensue.
jonny_eh 8y ago
Recent podcast episode from the show Reply All about this: https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/135-the-robocall-conundrum https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/135-the-robocall-conun...
MiddleEndian 8y ago
Foreign countries aren't subject to US phone laws. Anyone making any call in or to the US can just lie about their caller ID, and the phone company forwards that lie to you.
instaheat 8y ago
Most of them are referred to as willful violators. To them, less than 1% of people will chase them down, so the risk is worth it. What do most of us do? Block the numbers, install apps to block them, yell at them, curse their name, not pick up. Consequently, if you can find out who they are as AnimalMuppet rightly indicated, you can make them pay YOU. Personally, I've collected nearly $4,000 generated from carefully drafted letters to the violators. I am sending off a demand for another settlement payment soon, I just haven't had the time to schlep on down to the post office. The money represents an out of court settlement. It works. They would rather pay you and have you shut up, than you drag them into court. USUALLY, you have them dead to rights and the process of discovery should you go to court would reveal they did in fact call you. It's an investment of your time, you have to take the call and convince the salesperson they are about to make a sale. Usually you can get the info if they think they are going to make a sale. I feign interest in what they are selling. Some of them are really good and won't give up any information because they understand the risk of doing so. I've had both experienced and non-experienced reps on my phone. Funny thing is, I get less calls now. They've practically stopped at least for one vertical - auto warranties. I suspect I may be blacklisted or they somehow share information with each other, because there is a very high probability that if you call me, your company will be writing me a check. I am happy to divulge more information, my friend has written an Ebook on the subject in detail complete with template letters and is a complete "how to" guide on collecting money from the robocallers. It's extremely satisfying. Only cost $47.
- hadlock 8y ago
  I am all for this, but would love some guidelines (tips? pointers?) on how to figure out who they are to get the process started.
  - instaheat 8y ago
    You have to get them to cough it up. Obviously you can't start the call with "Who are you?!?" They'll just hang up on you - and call again some other time. There are different strategies to accomplish this. My personal strategy is to act interested. The Ebook goes into further detail and most importantly includes the template letter that was drafted with the help of a lawyer I assume. It's a small investment.
paco3346 8y ago
Surprisingly I've had the number of robocalls go down since I started politely answering them. I'm never rude but ask for ridiculous things like negative interest rates on my credit card. I never hear from them again whereas before I'd keep getting the same call.
unsignedint 8y ago
I have started telling people that I need to whitelist them in order for me to take a call from them. If I have to expect call from someone new (e.g. need to expect callback from some vendor, etc.) usually by asking "what number should I expect a call from?" -- usually they are fine answering that question, but if they won't or can't, I demand call back number that I can actually call, in response to voice mail. I understand not everyone can do this (especially for business expecting inbound calls) but at least for personal numbers, I really want to see the social norm shifting to "have the caller on a whitelist or they are ignored."
URSpider94 8y ago
1. Last I heard, the office responsible for DNC enforcement had literally 4 staff members. The chances of getting caught and punished by the government are minuscule. 2. The rise of IP telephony has made it cost effective to run call centers and bot farms overseas to target the US, making it hard to get jurisdiction over violators. 3. IP telephony also makes it easy to cloak the source of calls, making them hard to trace. 4. Phone companies have been dragging their heels on implementing a validation method for caller ID, which makes number-based blacklists useless.
8bitsrule 8y ago
An alternative approach: I NEVER answer calls that don't have a user-ID that I know (or a number I recognize). IMO, any legit business, charity, whatever will use that advantage. Picking up, just saying hello, that's a 'real number'. They'll be back. In some cases, the same (no-ID) number will call several times over a period of days. I add the number to my blacklist and the phone might ring once. As time goes by, the volume of this type of call drops away to one or two a day.
yellow_lead 8y ago
Because of how Telecom works, robocallers can put whatever originating number they want in the SIP header. This will eventually come to your phone, usually as a number in the same NPA-NXX (area code, first 3) to trick you to pick it up. Carriers that originate a call can know if their customer doing so owns the number, but all the other carriers along the many hops it may take，have no way of verifying that one of the previous carriers owns that number. The solution is a combination of the Stir/Shaken implementation and the proof of ownership for telephone numbers that the FCC is starting to ask carriers to implement. Anyways, because people can fake the orig number, and SS7 is massive, it's nearly impossible to track down violators like this, given a number.

18 points by rhacker 8y ago

It's 2019, the do not call list was created in 1991. I get about 25 robocalls per day.

BA4gDY-cqjsEPWn 8y ago

Same reason Google/Facebook doesn't fix ad fraud. ;-)

appsonify 8y ago

This is why I use 2nd Line. the voice quality is shit but its free so.

AnimalMuppet 8y ago

Because nobody goes to jail for violating the do not call list. People do get fined... but you have to find them first.

WorldMaker 8y ago
…and the fines have to be big enough to matter, otherwise the occasional fine is just one more line of overhead in the project budget.
gesman 8y ago
Fines will have to be big enough and laws strict enough. Then the crowd hunt will ensue.

jonny_eh 8y ago

Recent podcast episode from the show Reply All about this: https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/135-the-robocall-conundrum https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/135-the-robocall-conun...

MiddleEndian 8y ago

Foreign countries aren't subject to US phone laws. Anyone making any call in or to the US can just lie about their caller ID, and the phone company forwards that lie to you.

instaheat 8y ago

Most of them are referred to as willful violators. To them, less than 1% of people will chase them down, so the risk is worth it. What do most of us do? Block the numbers, install apps to block them, yell at them, curse their name, not pick up. Consequently, if you can find out who they are as AnimalMuppet rightly indicated, you can make them pay YOU. Personally, I've collected nearly $4,000 generated from carefully drafted letters to the violators. I am sending off a demand for another settlement payment soon, I just haven't had the time to schlep on down to the post office. The money represents an out of court settlement. It works. They would rather pay you and have you shut up, than you drag them into court. USUALLY, you have them dead to rights and the process of discovery should you go to court would reveal they did in fact call you. It's an investment of your time, you have to take the call and convince the salesperson they are about to make a sale. Usually you can get the info if they think they are going to make a sale. I feign interest in what they are selling. Some of them are really good and won't give up any information because they understand the risk of doing so. I've had both experienced and non-experienced reps on my phone. Funny thing is, I get less calls now. They've practically stopped at least for one vertical - auto warranties. I suspect I may be blacklisted or they somehow share information with each other, because there is a very high probability that if you call me, your company will be writing me a check. I am happy to divulge more information, my friend has written an Ebook on the subject in detail complete with template letters and is a complete "how to" guide on collecting money from the robocallers. It's extremely satisfying. Only cost $47.

hadlock 8y ago
I am all for this, but would love some guidelines (tips? pointers?) on how to figure out who they are to get the process started.
- instaheat 8y ago
  You have to get them to cough it up. Obviously you can't start the call with "Who are you?!?" They'll just hang up on you - and call again some other time. There are different strategies to accomplish this. My personal strategy is to act interested. The Ebook goes into further detail and most importantly includes the template letter that was drafted with the help of a lawyer I assume. It's a small investment.

paco3346 8y ago

Surprisingly I've had the number of robocalls go down since I started politely answering them. I'm never rude but ask for ridiculous things like negative interest rates on my credit card. I never hear from them again whereas before I'd keep getting the same call.

unsignedint 8y ago

I have started telling people that I need to whitelist them in order for me to take a call from them. If I have to expect call from someone new (e.g. need to expect callback from some vendor, etc.) usually by asking "what number should I expect a call from?" -- usually they are fine answering that question, but if they won't or can't, I demand call back number that I can actually call, in response to voice mail. I understand not everyone can do this (especially for business expecting inbound calls) but at least for personal numbers, I really want to see the social norm shifting to "have the caller on a whitelist or they are ignored."

URSpider94 8y ago

1. Last I heard, the office responsible for DNC enforcement had literally 4 staff members. The chances of getting caught and punished by the government are minuscule. 2. The rise of IP telephony has made it cost effective to run call centers and bot farms overseas to target the US, making it hard to get jurisdiction over violators. 3. IP telephony also makes it easy to cloak the source of calls, making them hard to trace. 4. Phone companies have been dragging their heels on implementing a validation method for caller ID, which makes number-based blacklists useless.

8bitsrule 8y ago

An alternative approach: I NEVER answer calls that don't have a user-ID that I know (or a number I recognize). IMO, any legit business, charity, whatever will use that advantage. Picking up, just saying hello, that's a 'real number'. They'll be back. In some cases, the same (no-ID) number will call several times over a period of days. I add the number to my blacklist and the phone might ring once. As time goes by, the volume of this type of call drops away to one or two a day.

yellow_lead 8y ago

Because of how Telecom works, robocallers can put whatever originating number they want in the SIP header. This will eventually come to your phone, usually as a number in the same NPA-NXX (area code, first 3) to trick you to pick it up. Carriers that originate a call can know if their customer doing so owns the number, but all the other carriers along the many hops it may take，have no way of verifying that one of the previous carriers owns that number. The solution is a combination of the Stir/Shaken implementation and the proof of ownership for telephone numbers that the FCC is starting to ask carriers to implement. Anyways, because people can fake the orig number, and SS7 is massive, it's nearly impossible to track down violators like this, given a number.