4 ms·

Personally I'm a fan of tightly packed townhomes (or, SFH packed with just a few inches between them, as seen in some places), but I think an important step tow

Personally I'm a fan of tightly packed townhomes (or, SFH packed with just a few inches between them, as seen in some places), but I think an important step towards the walkable urbanism the authors want is simply to remove unnecessary restrictions on housing. Like, I get that some people want big lawns and backyards but I don't get why this needs to be the only housing that's legal in the majority of all suburbs in the country (even many inner suburbs just a few miles from major urban centers). Why can't I do what I want with my property? Is there really that much of a public interest in forcing an entire neighborhood to be grass farmers?

gowld 8y ago
The big problem with townhomes and apartments is shoddy construction making neighbors a noise nuisance. Also, economics is weird. Townhomes cost almost the same as nearby houses, perhaps because they are relatively limited supply and more cost-efficient to maintain, so people look at the sticker price and think "oh, I can get a lot more footage for a little more price". Also, townhomes tend to get built as sound buffers alongside highways, making them unpleasant to live in.
- Zimahl 8y ago
  Townhomes, at least in the Portland OR suburbs, cost exactly the same as stand alone homes while being typically smaller, sometimes with a one-car garage, and maybe only a small backyard (sometimes no backyard). While the list price of the townhome is typically less, you can pay hundreds of dollars per month for a HOA which brings your monthly payment up to almost the same price as a stand alone home.
- lazyasciiart 8y ago
  None of that seems like an explanation for banning them.
- alistairSH 8y ago
  Those problems are solvable. My perception... the real problem is Americans expect a lot of space. They would rather trade quality for sqft. A 2200sqft TH with thin walls is more sellable than a 1600sqft TH with thick walls. Additionally, THs are considered "starter" homes. Certainly here in DC, a couple is expected to "move up" to a single-family in the outer 'burbs when their family grows. It's all quite silly. And I say that having bought the single family in my 20s, hated it, sold it in my early 40s to go back to a TH. Now I walk to work, shorter drive to pretty much everything when needed, less maintenance. I'm much happier.
  - magduf 8y ago
    >Certainly here in DC, a couple is expected to "move up" to a single-family in the outer 'burbs when their family grows. Yep, I'm in DC too, and happen to live in a condo. There's lots of townhomes near me, but it amazes me how many people willingly move out to Haymarket or Warrenton to buy an McMansion and then drive 2+ hours/day, mostly sitting in bumper-to-bumper traffic on I-66. Now the government has cut down all the trees and dug everything up around that highway so they can widen it, which of course isn't going to help one iota. >It's all quite silly. And I say that having bought the single family in my 20s, hated it, sold it in my early 40s to go back to a TH. Now I walk to work, shorter drive to pretty much everything when needed, less maintenance. I'm much happier. Interesting: you sound a lot like me.
    - alistairSH 8y ago
      I get really annoyed at a few co-workers who live out in Haymarket and commute to Reston. No shit your commute is awful. There's a reason I live in a 1500sqft TH across the street and not a 2800sqft McMansion 20+ miles away! Yes, they cost the same. But, is the extra space really worth the commuting headaches???
nachiketkumar 8y ago
Calling suburban homeowners grass farmers is an insult to real grass farmers like Joel Salatin and Gabe Brown ;).
- yostrovs 8y ago
  Indeed, particularly in light of how much criticism these gentlemen cast at the useless, counterproductive front lawns of America's suburbia.
briHass 8y ago
There's more to zoning than just wanting nice looking grass. For areas not originally built to house 3-4x the density, there's likely issues with capacity for: utilities (sewage/water), roads/traffic, stormwater runoff, school enrollment, and local services. That's not even considering veiled NIMBYism manifested as environmental concerns: tree removal, disruption of ecosystem, natural/green spaces, etc. Even still, in growing suburban areas, you do typically see what you're proposing: conversion of a multi-acre lot to many, high-density homes (e.g. 'carriage' houses.)
- helen___keller 8y ago
  Oh sure I get that. Any matter of urban design & planning has infinitely more complexity than you're going to find on an internet discussion. Undoing postwar suburban sprawl is not going to be an easy task. Still, for any person who is a fan of urbanism it's easy to be salty about this topic. City planning has favored motorists living in sprawl for half a century. Nobody cared about the noise pollution that would result to those living in the inner cities when public policy pushed everyone to the suburban fringe. Nobody cared about the risks and the inconveniences to pedestrians and cyclists when we designed our cities to favor motorists. And yet, the moment we start to talk about allowing some multifamily units in a place that is traditionally single family you are immediately bombarded with the Concerns. My schools! My traffic! My parking spaces! I wish the same concern was shown before we covered the entire nation with the suburban blight that rules today.
- ip26 8y ago
  I'm generally opposed to tree removal everywhere- I guess that makes me a NIABY? They cut down huge trees that provided tons of shade, build something new, plant a sapling, and call it even. I swear half the time the tree wasn't even in the way. Anyway, this process also tends to repeat every twenty years or so as buildings get old, companies die, and style changes. So as soon as the tree is starting to hit it's stride, start all over.

gowld 8y ago

The big problem with townhomes and apartments is shoddy construction making neighbors a noise nuisance. Also, economics is weird. Townhomes cost almost the same as nearby houses, perhaps because they are relatively limited supply and more cost-efficient to maintain, so people look at the sticker price and think "oh, I can get a lot more footage for a little more price". Also, townhomes tend to get built as sound buffers alongside highways, making them unpleasant to live in.

Zimahl 8y ago
Townhomes, at least in the Portland OR suburbs, cost exactly the same as stand alone homes while being typically smaller, sometimes with a one-car garage, and maybe only a small backyard (sometimes no backyard). While the list price of the townhome is typically less, you can pay hundreds of dollars per month for a HOA which brings your monthly payment up to almost the same price as a stand alone home.
lazyasciiart 8y ago
None of that seems like an explanation for banning them.
alistairSH 8y ago
Those problems are solvable. My perception... the real problem is Americans expect a lot of space. They would rather trade quality for sqft. A 2200sqft TH with thin walls is more sellable than a 1600sqft TH with thick walls. Additionally, THs are considered "starter" homes. Certainly here in DC, a couple is expected to "move up" to a single-family in the outer 'burbs when their family grows. It's all quite silly. And I say that having bought the single family in my 20s, hated it, sold it in my early 40s to go back to a TH. Now I walk to work, shorter drive to pretty much everything when needed, less maintenance. I'm much happier.
- magduf 8y ago
  >Certainly here in DC, a couple is expected to "move up" to a single-family in the outer 'burbs when their family grows. Yep, I'm in DC too, and happen to live in a condo. There's lots of townhomes near me, but it amazes me how many people willingly move out to Haymarket or Warrenton to buy an McMansion and then drive 2+ hours/day, mostly sitting in bumper-to-bumper traffic on I-66. Now the government has cut down all the trees and dug everything up around that highway so they can widen it, which of course isn't going to help one iota. >It's all quite silly. And I say that having bought the single family in my 20s, hated it, sold it in my early 40s to go back to a TH. Now I walk to work, shorter drive to pretty much everything when needed, less maintenance. I'm much happier. Interesting: you sound a lot like me.
  - alistairSH 8y ago
    I get really annoyed at a few co-workers who live out in Haymarket and commute to Reston. No shit your commute is awful. There's a reason I live in a 1500sqft TH across the street and not a 2800sqft McMansion 20+ miles away! Yes, they cost the same. But, is the extra space really worth the commuting headaches???

nachiketkumar 8y ago

Calling suburban homeowners grass farmers is an insult to real grass farmers like Joel Salatin and Gabe Brown ;).

yostrovs 8y ago
Indeed, particularly in light of how much criticism these gentlemen cast at the useless, counterproductive front lawns of America's suburbia.

briHass 8y ago

There's more to zoning than just wanting nice looking grass. For areas not originally built to house 3-4x the density, there's likely issues with capacity for: utilities (sewage/water), roads/traffic, stormwater runoff, school enrollment, and local services. That's not even considering veiled NIMBYism manifested as environmental concerns: tree removal, disruption of ecosystem, natural/green spaces, etc. Even still, in growing suburban areas, you do typically see what you're proposing: conversion of a multi-acre lot to many, high-density homes (e.g. 'carriage' houses.)

helen___keller 8y ago
Oh sure I get that. Any matter of urban design & planning has infinitely more complexity than you're going to find on an internet discussion. Undoing postwar suburban sprawl is not going to be an easy task. Still, for any person who is a fan of urbanism it's easy to be salty about this topic. City planning has favored motorists living in sprawl for half a century. Nobody cared about the noise pollution that would result to those living in the inner cities when public policy pushed everyone to the suburban fringe. Nobody cared about the risks and the inconveniences to pedestrians and cyclists when we designed our cities to favor motorists. And yet, the moment we start to talk about allowing some multifamily units in a place that is traditionally single family you are immediately bombarded with the Concerns. My schools! My traffic! My parking spaces! I wish the same concern was shown before we covered the entire nation with the suburban blight that rules today.
ip26 8y ago
I'm generally opposed to tree removal everywhere- I guess that makes me a NIABY? They cut down huge trees that provided tons of shade, build something new, plant a sapling, and call it even. I swear half the time the tree wasn't even in the way. Anyway, this process also tends to repeat every twenty years or so as buildings get old, companies die, and style changes. So as soon as the tree is starting to hit it's stride, start all over.