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China bans 23M from buying travel tickets as part of 'social credit' system
- skilled 8y agoDude.. People are literally paying the government money (tax) to have them brainwashed. Society in 2019 sure as hell is fun..
- tapland 8y agoWhoever is governing has always had the opportunity to influence others, because whatever media of the time reports in some way about what is happening at the governing levels of society. This is not a 2019 problem.
- tenpies 8y agoWhile I agree, I think it's getting worst globally. Canada, for example, now has a $600 million budget item dedicated to "helping the media". There is no amount of process, bureaucracy, or impartiality that makes me think this doesn't change how journalists report about the government, even if it's unconscious.
- justaguyhere 8y agoThe scale, ease, speed and reach of the tools for media manipulation in 2019 is very scary compared to those in the past. And it is only going to get worse. Russia is said to have spent very little money in meddling with other countries' elections using the media, for a fantastic ROI. This wasn't possible in the past.
- tapland 8y agoYes. Streamlining communication doesn't always bring benefits. We need to sort something out that works when everything is instant.
- avaika 8y agoWell. I live in authoritarian country (which I'm not proud of). I do pay taxes. I know there's a lot of brainwashing in mass media (which I don't listen to). Corruption is everywhere. Any opposition activity is suppressed by government hard enough. You need some balls to organize an event (most likely organizer will end up in prison for at least a few weeks afterwards). Even though I don't really want to relocate at this point (might sound crazy, and I'm already not sure for how long I won't change my mind). So. What are my options, so it won't be as hell is fun?
- ryanwaggoner 8y agoI'm sorry. That sounds terrible. I think many are too quick to just say "move somewhere else!" without thinking through all the economic, social, familial, cultural, and legal ties that bind us to a place. Not to mention the fact that societies generally only improve because of the efforts of the population who determines they should stay and fight rather than flee. But I can't blame anyone for taking either of those paths, or even just keeping their head down and trying to muddle along. No easy answers.
- sctb 8y agoPlease don't post unsubstantive comments like this in tinderbox threads. We don't learn anything and just get riled up. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- skilled 8y agoOK ok... Sorry.
- sova 8y agoYou can clear your name by doing "good deeds" and restore your government-approved reputation, allowing you to ride trains and you know, be human
- nickthemagicman 8y agoGood Deeds? Basically unpaid labor?
- microcolonel 8y agoDeeds deemed good by the CCP.
- wil421 8y agoIs it much different than having to do community service for a misdemeanor? I would think disorderly conduct or public drunkenness are similar to some of these social credit deductions. *I do not agree with social credit just attempting to draw comparisons to the US.
- sova 8y agoThere are little community watch ladies who walk around communities of about ~20,000 people and keep tabs on exceptionally good or kind hearted deeds. Example, man loses wallet and the janitor returns it with no money removed. He gets points for returning it and his face on the neighborhood praise wall. Then the guy who got his wallet back makes a banner celebrating the janitor and his photo is also featured on the praise wall. Another man's identity was mistakenly affected by a point deduction and he spent months doing simple small good deeds to earn his right to ride (buy a ticket for) the high speed trains again. Any native Chinese person interviewed about it must necessarily praise the system due to their regime, so I wish all the "interviews" would halt.
- nickthemagicman 8y agoThat's some next level dystopian stuff there.
- moviuro 8y agoFor those interested in what can happen, I'd recommend watching Psycho-Pass [0], which revolves entirely around a civilization with citizen score. Good stuff happens (nobody locks their homes anymore), but potential criminals are taken out with no form of judgement whatsoever (à la Minority Report). Edit: and also, shorter and not any less scary, that one episode of Black Mirror [1] [0] https://myanimelist.net/anime/13601/psycho-pass https://myanimelist.net/anime/13601/psycho-pass [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosedive_(Black_Mirror) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosedive_(Black_Mirror)
- Cyph0n 8y agoGreat show in general, but it might not be a good start for someone who is not familiar with anime.
- LinuxBender 8y agoThere was a similar theme in an episode of Star Trek the Next Generation [1]. They visited what appeared to be a utopian planet with everyone dressed in skimpy outfits, landscape was beautiful, people were super friendly. The ships chief medical officers son Wesley tripped over a small fence around a garden after convincing other teenagers to play catch and guards showed up to euthanize him for breaking the rules. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_G...
- LinuxBender 8y agoForgot to add the link to the scene [2] [2] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfqa596xxbc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfqa596xxbc
- Miner49er 8y agoI'm curious how this is worse then what the United States does, for example. Nearly all the "crimes" listed here can be punished with jail in the U.S., which is obviously way worse, and far more violent.
- creaghpatr 8y agoPaypal is doing this now, in partnership with the SPLC.
- AlexandrB 8y agoWhile comparing Paypal banning a few people to China is hyperbole, you're not entirely wrong. With Facebook/Google in the role of data gathering, I think insurance and credit companies will slowly move us towards a distributed version of social credit. Where doing something "bad" can affect your credit score and insurance premiums eventually making your life impossible if you do enough "bad" things.
- leereeves 8y agoWho will define "bad"? In China, "bad" means opposing government corruption. > When [reporter] Liu Hu recently tried to book a flight, he was told he was banned from flying because he was on the list of untrustworthy people. Liu is a journalist who was ordered by a court to apologize for a series of tweets he wrote and was then told his apology was insincere. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/china-social-credit-system-surveillance-cameras/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/china-social-credit-system-surv... > Liu had posted information about embezzlement by a local official, Ma Zhengqi, on his personal page on the Weibo social network because he knew that censorship would prevent its publication in the newspaper. https://rsf.org/en/hero/liu-hu https://rsf.org/en/hero/liu-hu
- Hydraulix989 8y agoIt depends. If you have more political power than the person you are reporting, then you will be fine.
- creaghpatr 8y agoTheir system is easier to execute, definitely more difficult to pull off in bipartisan US with public and private sectors.
- AlexandrB 8y ago
- cat199 8y agorobotpeople's republic of china
- sctb 8y agoWe've asked you before to please stop trolling. We eventually ban accounts, so could you please review the guidelines and stop? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- cat199 8y agoget that this was not a good post. apologies. will be more cognizant of guidelines, which i was not before. that said, not a troller or a troll account. is there any metaprocess here for reviewing flags and/or flagging a bad flag? (which, to be clear, i'm not saying this is, and infact, the contrary) 4+ pages of comment review doesn't show me any 'ask before', and I'd hate to get mis-banned by being too irritable in an actually better/on topic/etc post.. (which, to be clear this isn't)
- photoguy112 8y agoCan't wait until Trump reads this and thinks this is a great idea to bring to the states.
- cat199 8y agotrump? really? pretty sure polarizing and biased shutdown of opposing opinions is prevalent on all sides, and mizz pelosi does control the house these days..
- belorn 8y agoThe US already has the infamous Terrorist Watch List and No Fly List. George W. Bush created that 20 years ago. There are differences like the watch list is only 2m while the china travel ban is 23m, and the purpose differ quite a bit, but for an individual on either list it is supposedly hard to get out of or know why you got put there in the first place.
- Hydraulix989 8y agoThere’s a population difference though that brings this factor down a bit.
- 420codebro 8y agoIn the US, if you are on the No Fly List, I'm going to wager there's a fairly high likelihood that you have a vague idea why that may be. Aside from the occasional duplicate name mix-up, you don't get arbitrarily put on that list. It is our way of saying: "We suspect you're up to no good, however it falls short of the legal threshold of being able to charge you with a specific crime. However, we aren't obligated to grant you absolute freedom of movement. Take a car, or something, shit-bird."
- detuur 8y agoFree travel restricted to four-star citizens and up.
- PakG1 8y agoJust to be clear, free as in freedom, not beer.
- vlozko 8y agoReminds me of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosedive_(Black_Mirror) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosedive_(Black_Mirror)
- fimdomeio 8y agoI'm pretty convinced the episode was inspired on the first news referencing the chineses plan.
- gipp 8y agoPretty sure you just overflowed the count of people drawing that comparison.
- narrator 8y agoJust another example of how recent pop culture has the ability to program people to expect a certain narrative outcome given certain narrative preconditions. It's why advertising works: "Buy this soap, you'll get women." Similarly, "I watched this show and this thing they are doing produces this outcome, the show said so."
- redleggedfrog 8y agoI feel this will make sheep. I'm not sure a population of sheep is good for a nation.
- paol 8y ago> I feel this will make sheep That is entirely the intended outcome.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- dTal 8y ago>The report said authorities collected more than 14m data points of “untrustworthy conduct” last year, including scams, unpaid loans, false advertising and occupying reserved seats on a train. That all sounded reasonable until the last one. Textbook "Arson, Murder, and Jaywalking". https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ArsonMurderAndJaywalking https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ArsonMurderAndJa...
- PakG1 8y agoTo be fair, getting punished to be unable to take trains for misbehaving on trains. If the seats are packed in a car and some douche is sitting in your seat and won't get up, and you're stuck standing for a few hours, I think you'd want some justice. That being said, a fine is probably a punishment that would make much more sense. More revenue for the government too.
- devoply 8y agoYes a no-fly list that you can't do anything about is fascist and totalitarian. We in the free countries, ah never mind.
- jimmy1 8y agoAh, but we can do something about it. We have something in America called "due process" so gather enough people around and force the FBI to fix their woefully inadequate form. The ACLU is doing just that in the mean time. "But why was it instituted in the first place?" Good question. People do things they aren't suppose to do in the first place all the time! But we can do something about it.
- dTal 8y agoYou're right, the no-fly list is extra-judicial and a violation of civil liberties, unconstitutional even. But let's not engage in a false equivalence here - the no-fly list has maybe 100,000 people on it[1], of which supposedly fewer than 1000 are American citizens, added over the course of nearly two decades. The Chinese list has 23 million of their own citizens, added over the course of a single year. [1] recent sources are hard to find, and the list apparently grows rather fast - I'm going off https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/20/fbi-no-fly-list-revealed-81k-names-fewer-1k-us/ https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/20/fbi-no-fly-...
- tux1968 8y agoTo a less egregious extent this is happening even in western democracies. For example people are losing access to payment processing functionality for essentially thought-crimes. Of course, it's a bit different because it's private sector, but the end result is the same for the individual.
- JulianMorrison 8y ago*for being fascists who are pushing an ideology that leads directly to genocide, but okay.
- smhost 8y agohn has become such a dumpfest of cryptofascists thinking that they are 9000 IQ brain geniuses and that no one can see through what they're trying to do.
- tux1968 8y agoI don't think that's true. There are many cases of this happening where the person could not be called a fascist at all. (Look at the case of Sargon for instance). If you asked the Chinese government, i'd bet they feel 100% justified that the people on their blacklist are subversive and dangerous too.
- sharpneli 8y agoAnd in communist countries its for being bourgeois imperialists who are pushing an ideology that directly leads to oppression of the working class. Unless one basically says ”But the difference is that our ideology is actually correct and theirs is wrong”. That leads to the conclusion that there is nothing wrong with that kind of oppression in itself, but only if the targets are the wrong targets.
- dleslie 8y agoA price of freedom and tolerance is that you must share it with people you don't like. And you must remain vigilant that they do not undermine your freedom.
- narrator 8y agoIt seems our institutions for societal problem solving have not changed much since the 19th century. We have prisons, the courts, and money, glorious money: the universal and only solution to all problems. China seems to be rearranging the rules and making things not only about money, but also behavior. They deal with their ethnic violence problems through reeducation camps instead of war (e.g Chechnya) or simply giving up and trying to contain the problem( e.g "no go zones"). They deal with their infrastructure problems by largely ignoring all legal opposition including property rights to development. They deal with the boom bust cycle by printing money and strictly controlling bank behavior and severely punishing bad actors. Now they are using social credit to control bad behavior without prisons. It's like they are trying to invent the next level of society, while our system thrives on growing and making industries out of its irresolvabe conflicts.
- ep103 8y agoNone of these things are new things. They're things the west largely has evolved past. "reeducation camps" are not an alternative to war. They're slow burn racial suppression and replacement, and used to enforce subservience through fear and torture. Populations have been erasing rival populations over territory, ideology and resources since the beginning of time. Since the holocaust, the west has at least begun attempting to move in a new direction. "ignoring all legal opposition to ... development" is not a new take on government infrastructure programs, its a return to the medieval period where a Lord didn't have to consider the needs of the peasants when deciding how to use and develop their land. Even serfdom granted the masses more rights than this. "with boom bust cycle by printing money" - This is just financial and political regulation. The west values boom / bust, if only because cyclical creation and destruction creates opportunities for those with enough resources to play, and so long as the 'bust' isn't so large as to destabilize the system. China values strict stability for a large number of political and social reasons. And 'severely punishing bad actors' has very little to do with regulating the economy, and very, very much to do with ensuring the stability and status quo (of the hierarchy) of the one party system. "using social credit to control bad behavior without prisons" - Does it matter if you have prisons, if you have turned your entire country into a prison? The purpose of the social credit system is not to control bad behavior, it is to control behavior. "it's like they are trying to invent the next level of society, while our system thrives on growing and making industries out of its irresolvabe conflicts" - They are trying to create a different society, though it is hardly a "new" or "next level" one. They are recreating the same type of dynastic society they have had for thousands of years, in a modern setting. As for us, our system thrives on the assumption that cyclical war/peace, famine/growth, boom/bust creates opportunity for those who survive to innovate the society. Our downsides are that when we entire long periods of peace, growth, and stability we tend to become overly lax and allow our most major economic actors to attempt to warp the system to lock in their dominant positions. If that then settles into a stagnant, stable or regressive economic period where such opportunity is increasingly unavailable, large segments of the population will desire to ditch the system entirely and desire radical change, usually to a strong-man system, such as the one once found in Germany, or currently found in China.
- BurningFrog 8y agoIf I understand the article, it's not that 23 million are permanently banned. These seem to be temporary bans, and they either expire or you have to do some act to regain your trusted status?
- Bailin 8y agoBeing added to the black list makes it harder to do almost everything (including making money), which then means it is very hard to get off the black list. Because of that, I'm not a fan of this system. https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/10/26/661163105/episode-871-blacklisted-in-china https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/10/26/661163105/epis...
- BurningFrog 8y agoThanks. I'll listen to it after work. It's hard to find first hand info on this, rather than tons of internet people assuming it's the Black Mirror episode come to life.
- aiyodev 8y agoThis Vice video shows what it's like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dkw15LkZ_Kw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dkw15LkZ_Kw It's a Black Mirror kind of nightmare. Imagine spending your life sweeping sidewalks with a forced smile on your face hoping one of the government's informants will notice and write it in their book so that someday you'll be allowed to buy a ticket to see your family.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- paulcarroty 8y agoChina looks like modern country with deeply hidden Soviet Union ideals and Lenin books under pillow. "We've come to wish you a Very Happy Thursday," said Pooh©
- hippich 8y agoI have a new idea for the Chinese government! "Xinjiang* - Beijing ticket - Price: ¥1200 + 150 Social Credits". "<blink>BEST DEAL!</blink> Beijing - Xinjiang ticket - Price: ¥400. And EARN 20 Social Credits!" https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/02/opinion/uighur-muslims-china-gulag.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/02/opinion/uighur-muslims-ch...
- nathan_f77 8y agoI don't think this is such a bad idea in principle, but I disagree with a lot of these rules. I've tried to find a few examples from various articles and see if I agree or disagree with them. Note: [𝗫] means that I agree with the rule. ---------------- [] Spending too long playing video games (or watching too much TV) I don't know how long is "too long", but I wouldn't criticize anyone for playing in the evenings after work, or longer on the weekends. And what if someone is or unable to work, or financially independent? The government shouldn't be telling people how to spend their time. [] Wasting money on frivolous purchases This is a very strange thing to measure and judge. [] Posting on social media This is bizarre. [𝗫] Trying to ride a train with no ticket [𝗫] Loitering in front of boarding gates [𝗫] Smoking in no-smoking areas. [] People who refused military service Forced conscription is an awful idea and should be banned by the UN. (I found this [1].) [𝗫] "Pet owners get points deducted if the dog is walked without a leash..." [] "... or causes public disturbances" I don't know about that. Don't penalize someone because their dog starts barking at something. [𝗫] Some crimes, like fraud and embezzlement, would also have a big effect on social credit. [𝗫] Not paying individual taxes or fines. [𝗫 in a western country, but not in China] - Spreading false information I wouldn't trust the Chinese government to enforce this. Maybe in Canada, US, UK, Aus, NZ. Taking drugs: 𝗫 for all Class A drugs, but not for marijuana, ecstacy, LSD, mushrooms, etc. ---------------- I'm assuming that the following criteria exist, although I didn't find anything online: [] Using a VPN to get past the Great Firewall I truly don't understand why China feels the need for censorship and blocking websites with the Great Firewall. It just doesn't make any sense to me. It's not like the rest of the world has fallen into anarchy because we can say whatever we want. [𝗫] Downloading pirated movies, music, games, and software I'm thinking about this from a western point of view, where we have access to Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, Google Play, iTunes, etc. There's no valid reason to torrent things anymore. People should be able to afford to rent movies or TV shows instead of pirating them. [] Organizing a pro-democracy rally / protesting communism It's just strange that people get in trouble for this, and I presume that they lose a lot of their social credit points. [] Practicing Islam, Christianity, Falun Gong I think this is the far more dystopian side of China, and far more terrible than the social credit system. [] Referring to Xi Jinping as Winnie the Pooh It just doesn't seem like such a big deal. Same for the Erdogan / Gollum picture. These people just need to lighten up and take a joke. (But I understand it's a different culture.) [] Taking big risks to start a new company I still can't believe that entrepreneurship was illegal in the Soviet Union. I would like to learn more about the history of entrepreneurship in China, but I believe it's very accepted now, especially in cities like Shenzhen. I included this because I feel like everyone would be expected to go to university, get a good job, and have a peaceful life, and you might lose some social credit if you veer off that path. That's definitely not a world I want to live in. [] Relationship problems, divorce, infidelity Should have nothing to do with the government. ---------------- Anyway, I think the social credit system could work in a better country with better laws. My main problem with China is the terrible human rights violations, lack of free speech, censorship, and no freedom of religion. [1] https://www.ohchr.org/EN/Issues/RuleOfLaw/Pages/ConscientiousObjection.aspx https://www.ohchr.org/EN/Issues/RuleOfLaw/Pages/Conscientiou...
- zachguo 8y agoSensationalization aside, imagine, everyday, you have to interact with hundreds of people and have a million strangers passing in front of you. If you've taken BART or VTA in Bay Area, imagine the amount of people is 100 times bigger. Your chance of running into an a*hole is super high, what would you do about it?
- MR4D 8y agoI have a feeling that China is in the process of creating a huge unintended consequence... China has a middle class of roughly 450 million people. [0] My guess is that most of those blocked are people from the middle class. (Why bother blocking access to someone who can't afford it anyway?) If that assumption is anywhere near correct (and it could be wrong), then roughly 5% of the middle class were blocked from significant economic activity. If this continues, and grows (I'm thinking of that episode of The Orville, where people had social credit scores on their name-tag [1]), then they could easily be blocking 10% or more of their middle class. This has to have negative economic consequences that impact the GDP of the country at some point. An ironic outcome is that it could cause people to become overly concerned about debt, and stop consuming. If that happened at a large scale, China would face innumerable problems. [0] - https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/02/01/chinas-middle-class-is-pulling-up-the-ladder-behind-itself/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/02/01/chinas-middle-class-is-... [1] - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6845666/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6845666/
- theredbox 8y agoThrough influence and money China can impose social credit on foreigners or businesses. You did talk shit about CCP or China ? You can say adieu to your license or ability to do joint ventures in China.