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Meditations gave me nothing that I didn't get from reading a few of Aurelius' quotes. One of those books that you expect to be great and it disappoints. The pr

Meditations gave me nothing that I didn't get from reading a few of Aurelius' quotes. One of those books that you expect to be great and it disappoints. The problem with stoicism is the same problem as the problems with Buddhism's eight-fold path; avoiding suffering is not living to the fullest. If that's your philosophy, what's the point of being alive? Stoicism/Buddhism works well in situations for which it was designed by Siddhartha - enduring your crappy slave existence. It makes sense to learn not to feel when all you feel is disappointment and lack of control. A bit defeatist, really. Enduring, while valuable, is not being proactive. It's effective, but it's no way to live long term.

GarrisonPrime 8y ago
I don’t see Stoicism as advocating avoidance of suffering or becoming numb to it, but rather being able to wisely take the suffering in context so as to avoid letting it irrationally overwhelm you.
gerbilly 8y ago
> avoiding suffering is not living to the fullest. But that's just it, buddhism does not advocate avoidance of suffering[1] at all. The buddhist 'path' is about using suffering as a raw material and transforming it. You can't be a buddhist without experiencing suffering, because you need to work with it. > Buddhism works well in situations for which it was designed by Siddhartha - enduring your crappy slave existence. Siddhartha was an indian prince who gave up that life to investigate suffering. He realized early that he would have suffered whether he stayed in the palace or not. Buddhism is not about enduring, it is about transforming. [1] Suffering as might be translated today as 'stress'.
- ohaideredevs 8y ago
  Nowhere in the fundamental Buddhist tenets did I see anything about "transforming." All I see is "Desire causes suffering, learn not to desire anything to free yourself from suffering." Which, to me, sounds a whole lot like monkhood, which I see as escapism; there is a reason that the most common story you hear in a monastery is "I used to be an alcoholic". I am genuinely interested in what people see in Buddhism beyond that - this is after literally decades of having the same debate with random strangers and reading provided sources.
  - gerbilly 8y ago
    > Nowhere in the fundamental Buddhism tenets did I see anything about "transforming." That's just it though, you might not have seen it in your readings, but it is part of the practise. Buddhism isn't just a set of beliefs, it's a practise. It's not about professing a set of beliefs, it's more like a training program to achieve an outcome. I'm not telling you that you should practise buddhism of course, but if you want to understand it, you can't just read about it. That would be like reading everything you can find about golf, and then saying you understand golf. Asking random strangers about their experiences is only marginally better, since everyone will give you a different answer based on their individual experiences. See: https://www.amazon.com/No-Mud-Lotus-Transforming-Suffering/dp/1937006859 https://www.amazon.com/No-Mud-Lotus-Transforming-Suffering/d... If you are interested in an a modern analytical view of buddhism, you might enjoy this: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/shapeofsuffering.pdf https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/shape... or any other writing by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. IIRC he is a former engineer, so he explains buddhism in a way that might appeal more to the HN crowd.
    - ohaideredevs 8y ago
      I will check out those links after work, thanks.
  - triviatise 8y ago
    Im not a buddhist or a stoic, but from what little I have read I somewhat live that way. My parents once told me that one of my biggest problems is that I was too happy. I have always had the mantra "the path to true happiness is to want for nothing". This means you can either have the things you wanted or choose not to want the things you dont have. If I want something badly enough I work to get/achieve it. If I'm not willing to work to get it, then I am at peace with my decision because apparently I didn't want it that badly. I have a lot of material possessions and I enjoy them, yet if I were to lose them all it would be ok. There was a time in my life where I had to dig change out of the couch to buy enough to eat and I reveled in the moment, that I was a person that had to live that way. There was a certain thrill to finding a dollar so I could go to the farmers market to buy a basket of the veggies of the day which could be an entire basket of green peppers (yuck). I enjoyed learning a variety of recipes to make do with green peppers. Im happy to be able to travel, help others, raise kids, do hobbies etc. I enjoy them, but the loss of all of that, especially as I get older, I think I can accept. Every phase of life brings something new to enjoy, even pain. I often think about all the things I will lose, especially people, even to the point where it brings me to tears. I work to accept that loss today and to enjoy the having right now. One day I will lose my parents, I might lose my spouse, a child, a friend. When they are gone, I'll have the sadness, but I'll still have the joy of having had them in my life. Someday I might not be able to walk, see, or get out of bed. But I will appreciate and treasure the time I did have. As a concrete example I look at people who are so angry at trump, most of them are simply angry. The anger itself is pointless. In my world view you either act to create the change you want or accept that you dont care enough to act. Each person is motivated differently and people aren't bad because they don't care as much as you. Even if you act, you might fail. If you recognize that failure is possible, even feel anguish over the failure, yet try to see the pleasure in the attempt and the failure, then you can have peace. This means not being afraid of failure, because there is still joy in failure, the journey as well as the learning. If you want peace, you can have it. Many people simply dont want peace.
bg4 8y ago
> avoiding suffering is not living to the fullest Stoicism isn't about the avoidance of suffering. It's about accepting fate, loving others despite their behavior, and not creating anguish for yourself, in your own mind. It doesn't mean, however, that you don't attempt to put things in order and fix your problems. "Accept the things to which fate binds you, and love the people with whom fate brings you together, but do so with all your heart." "Be tolerant with others and strict with yourself." "So you were born to feel 'nice'? Instead of doing things and experiencing them? Don't you see the plants, the birds, the ants and spiders and bees going about their individual tasks, putting the world in order, as best they can? And you're not willing to do your job as a human being? Why aren't you running to do what your nature demands?"
- ddebernardy 8y ago
  > Stoicism isn't about the avoidance of suffering. It's about accepting fate That's actually a Roman-Christian reinterpretation of the Greek philosophy. The Greek teaching in a nutshell is that what depends on you depends on you, and what doesn't depend on you (such as others or nature) does not -- and therefor shouldn't be a source of frustration. (It says nowhere, as you note a few sentences later, that you should accept the would-be source of the frustration; just that you shouldn't be frustrated about it -- while working on improving the situation if you feel strongly about it.)
newsgremlin 8y ago
It's not about avoiding suffering, but rather analyzing the situation to determine what is and is not in your control within your own free will. One thing about suffering is that it is relative, it's possible to compare but never possible to truly understand, we after all only can feel our own emotions. Finding meaning in that suffering is also the means to continue, it is in itself an achievement that no other human can compare, because it is your own.
kilroy123 8y ago
Many would argue we _still_ live a crappy slave existence in the modern world.
- ohaideredevs 8y ago
  I am among that 'many'. But I also disagree with adopting a slave-coping philosophy.

GarrisonPrime 8y ago

I don’t see Stoicism as advocating avoidance of suffering or becoming numb to it, but rather being able to wisely take the suffering in context so as to avoid letting it irrationally overwhelm you.

gerbilly 8y ago

> avoiding suffering is not living to the fullest. But that's just it, buddhism does not advocate avoidance of suffering[1] at all. The buddhist 'path' is about using suffering as a raw material and transforming it. You can't be a buddhist without experiencing suffering, because you need to work with it. > Buddhism works well in situations for which it was designed by Siddhartha - enduring your crappy slave existence. Siddhartha was an indian prince who gave up that life to investigate suffering. He realized early that he would have suffered whether he stayed in the palace or not. Buddhism is not about enduring, it is about transforming. [1] Suffering as might be translated today as 'stress'.

ohaideredevs 8y ago
Nowhere in the fundamental Buddhist tenets did I see anything about "transforming." All I see is "Desire causes suffering, learn not to desire anything to free yourself from suffering." Which, to me, sounds a whole lot like monkhood, which I see as escapism; there is a reason that the most common story you hear in a monastery is "I used to be an alcoholic". I am genuinely interested in what people see in Buddhism beyond that - this is after literally decades of having the same debate with random strangers and reading provided sources.
- gerbilly 8y ago
  > Nowhere in the fundamental Buddhism tenets did I see anything about "transforming." That's just it though, you might not have seen it in your readings, but it is part of the practise. Buddhism isn't just a set of beliefs, it's a practise. It's not about professing a set of beliefs, it's more like a training program to achieve an outcome. I'm not telling you that you should practise buddhism of course, but if you want to understand it, you can't just read about it. That would be like reading everything you can find about golf, and then saying you understand golf. Asking random strangers about their experiences is only marginally better, since everyone will give you a different answer based on their individual experiences. See: https://www.amazon.com/No-Mud-Lotus-Transforming-Suffering/dp/1937006859 https://www.amazon.com/No-Mud-Lotus-Transforming-Suffering/d... If you are interested in an a modern analytical view of buddhism, you might enjoy this: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/shapeofsuffering.pdf https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/shape... or any other writing by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. IIRC he is a former engineer, so he explains buddhism in a way that might appeal more to the HN crowd.
  - ohaideredevs 8y ago
    I will check out those links after work, thanks.
- triviatise 8y ago
  Im not a buddhist or a stoic, but from what little I have read I somewhat live that way. My parents once told me that one of my biggest problems is that I was too happy. I have always had the mantra "the path to true happiness is to want for nothing". This means you can either have the things you wanted or choose not to want the things you dont have. If I want something badly enough I work to get/achieve it. If I'm not willing to work to get it, then I am at peace with my decision because apparently I didn't want it that badly. I have a lot of material possessions and I enjoy them, yet if I were to lose them all it would be ok. There was a time in my life where I had to dig change out of the couch to buy enough to eat and I reveled in the moment, that I was a person that had to live that way. There was a certain thrill to finding a dollar so I could go to the farmers market to buy a basket of the veggies of the day which could be an entire basket of green peppers (yuck). I enjoyed learning a variety of recipes to make do with green peppers. Im happy to be able to travel, help others, raise kids, do hobbies etc. I enjoy them, but the loss of all of that, especially as I get older, I think I can accept. Every phase of life brings something new to enjoy, even pain. I often think about all the things I will lose, especially people, even to the point where it brings me to tears. I work to accept that loss today and to enjoy the having right now. One day I will lose my parents, I might lose my spouse, a child, a friend. When they are gone, I'll have the sadness, but I'll still have the joy of having had them in my life. Someday I might not be able to walk, see, or get out of bed. But I will appreciate and treasure the time I did have. As a concrete example I look at people who are so angry at trump, most of them are simply angry. The anger itself is pointless. In my world view you either act to create the change you want or accept that you dont care enough to act. Each person is motivated differently and people aren't bad because they don't care as much as you. Even if you act, you might fail. If you recognize that failure is possible, even feel anguish over the failure, yet try to see the pleasure in the attempt and the failure, then you can have peace. This means not being afraid of failure, because there is still joy in failure, the journey as well as the learning. If you want peace, you can have it. Many people simply dont want peace.

bg4 8y ago

> avoiding suffering is not living to the fullest Stoicism isn't about the avoidance of suffering. It's about accepting fate, loving others despite their behavior, and not creating anguish for yourself, in your own mind. It doesn't mean, however, that you don't attempt to put things in order and fix your problems. "Accept the things to which fate binds you, and love the people with whom fate brings you together, but do so with all your heart." "Be tolerant with others and strict with yourself." "So you were born to feel 'nice'? Instead of doing things and experiencing them? Don't you see the plants, the birds, the ants and spiders and bees going about their individual tasks, putting the world in order, as best they can? And you're not willing to do your job as a human being? Why aren't you running to do what your nature demands?"

ddebernardy 8y ago
> Stoicism isn't about the avoidance of suffering. It's about accepting fate That's actually a Roman-Christian reinterpretation of the Greek philosophy. The Greek teaching in a nutshell is that what depends on you depends on you, and what doesn't depend on you (such as others or nature) does not -- and therefor shouldn't be a source of frustration. (It says nowhere, as you note a few sentences later, that you should accept the would-be source of the frustration; just that you shouldn't be frustrated about it -- while working on improving the situation if you feel strongly about it.)

newsgremlin 8y ago

It's not about avoiding suffering, but rather analyzing the situation to determine what is and is not in your control within your own free will. One thing about suffering is that it is relative, it's possible to compare but never possible to truly understand, we after all only can feel our own emotions. Finding meaning in that suffering is also the means to continue, it is in itself an achievement that no other human can compare, because it is your own.

kilroy123 8y ago

Many would argue we _still_ live a crappy slave existence in the modern world.

ohaideredevs 8y ago
I am among that 'many'. But I also disagree with adopting a slave-coping philosophy.