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How to Be a Stoic (2016)

162 points by andrelaszlo 8y ago

ataturk 8y ago
Millenials have learned a new word. Eye roll. You know, it's great if you want to be stoic, stiff upper lip, chin chin and all that. But could you please just keep it to yourself?
ggm 8y ago
Don't get angry with slaves could take on new relevance with an emerging underclass. I think we can all learn something from this.
HenryBemis 8y ago
One book that I had bought a few months back and started reading on Jan 1st is this The Daily Stoic: "366 Meditations on Wisdom, Perseverance, and the Art of Living" [1] It contains 366 quotes, one for every day. I usually read it in the morning, then I take a photo on my phone and I re-read it during lunch time. This way I can process it again and make sure I (try to) 'fix' one thing at a time. I have made this part of my "What the Most Successful People Do Before Breakfast" and "The Miracle Morning" combined-routine. [1]: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Daily-Stoic-Meditations-Perseverance-translations/dp/1781257655/ https://www.amazon.co.uk/Daily-Stoic-Meditations-Perseveranc...
- krzysztof 8y ago
  I also find this book really nicely written. Worth checking out if someone is interested more. Also Mark Aurelius Meditations are interesting read. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditations
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Topolomancer 8y ago
As befits HN, I also want to pitch the Meditations by Marcus Aurelius here. Being written for himself, it has a very different tone (no athletic coach, but rather a somewhat world-weary, if benevolent, uncle). Fundamentally, it treats similar ideas, though. I also stumbled over a very interesting quote from the article: > In other words, think of every unreasonable asshole you > have to deal with as part of God’s attempt to “turn you > into Olympic-class material.” This is a very powerful > trick. The _exact_ same trick is practiced in many (traditional) Christian faiths---but I have the feeling that placing it in that context would alienate many modern readers (and in the worst cases, it comes relatively close to the prosperity gospel stuff).
- mud_dauber 8y ago
  That quote was my main takeaway from the article. I agree, it's a great mind trick. Good call.
- jurgenwerk 8y ago
  What if Marcus Aurelius were a software developer? https://codeandtechno.com/posts/stoicism-for-developers/ https://codeandtechno.com/posts/stoicism-for-developers/
- yesenadam 8y ago
  I read a Buddhist thing, I forget what exactly, saying that when someone really bugs you in your life, think "Thank you, teacher of patience!". The gratefulness really turns things around magically. That was very helpful for me at that time in my life!
- FabHK 8y ago
  Let me take this opportunity to plug standardebooks.org (no affiliation) - nicely curated and carefully formatted free ebooks. They have a couple of books related to Stoicism. Here are the Meditations: https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/marcus-aurelius/meditations/george-long https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/marcus-aurelius/meditation... And The Enchiridion (by Epictetus): https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/epictetus/the-enchiridion/elizabeth-carter https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/epictetus/the-enchiridion/... And Seneca's Dialogues: https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/seneca/dialogues/aubrey-stewart https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/seneca/dialogues/aubrey-st...
  - tsjq 8y ago
    This site is interesting. Thanks for sharing. Curious : whether the proofreading and formatting here are better than Gutenberg public domain ebooks ? And, whether taking the EPUB and converting to AZW3 using calibre gets the same features as taking the AZW3 from this website ?
    - FabHK 8y ago
      Let me quote from the "About" page: > HOW’S THIS DIFFERENT FROM PROJECT GUTENBERG OR OTHER FREE EBOOK SITES? > While there are plenty of places where you can download free and accurately-transcribed public domain ebooks, we feel the quality of those ebooks can often be greatly improved. > For example, Project Gutenberg, a major producer of public-domain ebooks, hosts epub and Kindle files that sometimes lack basic typographic necessities like curly quotes; some of those ebooks are automatically generated and can’t take full advantage of modern ereader technology like popup footnotes or popup tables of contents; they sometimes lack niceties like cover images and title pages; and the quality of individual ebook productions varies greatly. Not sure about the Calibre conversion. I normally convert EPUBs to MOBI using Calibre (and switching to left aligned, right ragged), but on StandardEbooks I've been downloading the AZW3.
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ourmandave 8y ago
CliffsNotes: "Forget it Jake. It's Chinatown."
phatle 8y ago
A good book on Stoic is: https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Good-Life-Ancient-Stoic/dp/0195374614 https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Good-Life-Ancient-Stoic/dp/0195... Very easy to read this book and growth mind. There are no abstraction here. Very pragmatics. For those who want to know/understand Stoic. I'm highly recommended.
- ttcbj 8y ago
  I agree, I got a lot of value from this book.
- jacobolus 8y ago
  I disliked this book. Just go to the original classical sources, instead of this watered down derivative. Reading this one felt to me like having a sequence of funny jokes explained pedantically, without ever getting to hear the original jokes.
  - eswat 8y ago
    I can see why many would dislike this book vs. the sources, but it definitely makes the overall idea more palatable. Reading the Meditations isn't for everyone.
- martin-adams 8y ago
  As a newcomer to it, I found this book extremely helpful and instantly impactful to my daily life. That said, I find that you need to keep up the practice continually as its impact has a half life and fades over time.
  - jackhack 8y ago
    almost as if the world has a limitless supply of "challenges". As you level-up, so do the challenges which force one to grow. Hopefully.
MattyRad 8y ago
I think being stoic is becoming increasingly valuable regarding today's politics. Vindictiveness and toxicity is reflected regularly in people that closely follow national politics, usually demonstrated by their desire to relieve their frustrations by venting their negative emotions. Like the author quotes, "it is not events that disturb people, it is their judgments concerning them." Letting things which are so far removed from your control affect your daily disposition seems exhausting and miserable.
- TheOperator 8y ago
  One of then side effects of the rise of identity politics is an explosion in victim complexes. It's just a bit of a race to the bottom effect where one group will argue X thing doesn't mean they're victims because their group are victims in Y way. There are just so many victims these days that victimhood doesn't even serve actual victims. The supply of victims outstrips the demand. Stoicism is so starkly opposed to victimhood and complaining that it comes as a breath of fresh air.
jaabe 8y ago
I think there is a lot of value in stoicism, but it never really worked for me, because accepting things aren’t my thing. Instead I prefer the Socratic approach to issues, where you actually try and discover solutions together. I know stoics took a lot of lessons from Socrates, and that you can’t be Socratic without a tad of stoicism, but I’ve also found asking questions to be better (for me) than letting things slide. Like with the cab-driver taking the long route. Sure you can let it slide, but I’ve never had politely asking about it break my tranquility.
- FabHK 8y ago
  But the fundamental lesson is that the cab driver's behaviour is not under your control. How you react to it, is. You might then decide to let it slide, or mention it, or even make a fuss about it - but you deploy the anger instrumentally by your volition; you are not consumed and controlled by your anger.
  - heavenlyblue 8y ago
    I’ve got a friend who would act something like the parent comment: if a taxi guy diverges from the most efficient route, the friend would ask the driver why did that happen immediately. The truth is that I know that if I were in a situation like that as a drver, it would not take me much to lie to my friend if I needed to (whether I am taking advantage of him or it just happened this way). There are just too many variables for anyone to be able to call bullshit on all of them at once. Some people just like feeling in control. They just can’t admit they are not more often than not.
    - godshatter 8y ago
      There's also the chance that the longer route taken by the cab driver was for a reason. He knows about construction, or it's busy near there this time of day, or whatever. He might be doing it because it's safer. Of course, yes, he might be doing it because he's trying to bilk you out of a few bucks. Unless I take a cab all the time or something, I just chalk it up to the "cost of doing business" and go on with my day.
bootsz 8y ago
For those interested in learning more, I highly recommend Ryan Holiday's book The Obstacle is the Way which gives a great high-level modern take on stoicism. The classics are also obviously great too.
ohaideredevs 8y ago
Meditations gave me nothing that I didn't get from reading a few of Aurelius' quotes. One of those books that you expect to be great and it disappoints. The problem with stoicism is the same problem as the problems with Buddhism's eight-fold path; avoiding suffering is not living to the fullest. If that's your philosophy, what's the point of being alive? Stoicism/Buddhism works well in situations for which it was designed by Siddhartha - enduring your crappy slave existence. It makes sense to learn not to feel when all you feel is disappointment and lack of control. A bit defeatist, really. Enduring, while valuable, is not being proactive. It's effective, but it's no way to live long term.
- GarrisonPrime 8y ago
  I don’t see Stoicism as advocating avoidance of suffering or becoming numb to it, but rather being able to wisely take the suffering in context so as to avoid letting it irrationally overwhelm you.
- gerbilly 8y ago
  > avoiding suffering is not living to the fullest. But that's just it, buddhism does not advocate avoidance of suffering[1] at all. The buddhist 'path' is about using suffering as a raw material and transforming it. You can't be a buddhist without experiencing suffering, because you need to work with it. > Buddhism works well in situations for which it was designed by Siddhartha - enduring your crappy slave existence. Siddhartha was an indian prince who gave up that life to investigate suffering. He realized early that he would have suffered whether he stayed in the palace or not. Buddhism is not about enduring, it is about transforming. [1] Suffering as might be translated today as 'stress'.
  - ohaideredevs 8y ago
    Nowhere in the fundamental Buddhist tenets did I see anything about "transforming." All I see is "Desire causes suffering, learn not to desire anything to free yourself from suffering." Which, to me, sounds a whole lot like monkhood, which I see as escapism; there is a reason that the most common story you hear in a monastery is "I used to be an alcoholic". I am genuinely interested in what people see in Buddhism beyond that - this is after literally decades of having the same debate with random strangers and reading provided sources.
scottlocklin 8y ago
Somehow Aurelius never took with me as a longer man, but Stockdale's accounts of the impact of stoicism on his life are pretty good. http://media.hoover.org/sites/default/files/documents/978-0-8179-3692-1_1.pdf http://media.hoover.org/sites/default/files/documents/978-0-... https://www.usna.edu/Ethics/_files/documents/stoicism1.pdf https://www.usna.edu/Ethics/_files/documents/stoicism1.pdf https://www.usna.edu/Ethics/_files/documents/Stoicism2.pdf https://www.usna.edu/Ethics/_files/documents/Stoicism2.pdf
sn41 8y ago
Is there a more energetic way of looking at life than stoicism? Stoicism seemed life-denying whenever I seemed to get knto it.
athenot 8y ago
I think of this as a variant of Postel's law (for TCP/IP): Be conservative in what you do, Be liberal in what you accept from others. Most major belief systems have the same concept of defining "winning at being human" as putting up with more crap and simultaneously taking the effort to overdeliver. As a society, this pulls us upward. On a continuum, there are 3 states: - A negative state, where we take/expect more than we deliver. At best, we require others to do us good before we ourselves do good, at worse we are unconcerned about other's good. It's also, at an individual level, the path of least resistance. - A neutral state, where we attempt to balance what we expect and what we deliver. In that state is the Golden Rule (do to others what you want them to do to you) and eye-for-an-eye (don't return more tort than the tort caused to you). Very loosely, this is where justice lives. - A positive state, where we attempt to give more than what we expect. This is the domain of mercy, stoicism and "turn the other cheek". It requires a personal cost/sacrifice in order to expect less yet still deliver what is good. This is also the domain of love.
- swsieber 8y ago
  I like that comparison. I stumbled upon another continuum some years ago, and I think it makes a good companion. In this one, both ends are bad, and the middle is good. It's especially useful for dealing with any type of devotion to cause (or a person): Optimism ---- Improver ---- Pessimism Though people tend to go from Optimism -> Pessimism (-> Improver). The problem with optimists is that they will "defend the indefensible. He is the jingo of the universe; he will say, “My cosmos, right or wrong.” He will be less inclined to the reform of things; more inclined to a sort of front-bench official answer to all attacks, soothing everyone with assurances. He will not wash the world, but whitewash the world." The problem with pessimists is "not that he chastises gods and men, but that he does not love what he chastises . . . [In being the so-called ‘candid friend,’ the pessimist is not really candid.] He is keeping something back—in his own gloomy pleasure in saying unpleasant things. He has a secret desire to hurt, not merely to help. . . . He is using the ugly knowledge which was allowed him [in order] to strengthen the army, to discourage people from joining it." An example of the "Improver" is (are) women: "Some stupid people started the idea that because women obviously back up their own people through everything, therefore women are blind and do not see anything. They can hardly have known any women. The same women who are ready to defend their men through thick and thin . . . are almost morbidly lucid about the thinness of [their] excuses or the thickness of [their] head[s]. . . . Love is not blind; that is the last thing that it is. Love is bound; and the more it is bound the less it is blind." [0] Quotes from G.K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy(Garden City, N.Y.: Image Books, 1959), pp. 69–71. [1] Arrangement of quotes taken from https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-c-hafen_love-is-not-blind-thoughts-college-students-faith-ambiguity/ https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-c-hafen_love-is-not-bli...
sametmax 8y ago
This is not at all "how to be a stoic". This is "what it is to be a stoic". It's nice to say you have to avoid reacting to things outside of your control. But how does one do that ? Stoicism fails at explaining any practical way of embrassing the teaching. It's strange since they were quite practical people, but you see that a often in philosophy: lots of theory, very few advices for practice. At least the buddhists suggest meditation as a tool to learn to act instead of reacting, and see things more objectively.
- mercer 8y ago
  I found stoicism to be stepping stone to buddhism for precisely this reason. One of the things that drove me away from Christianity is that, among other things, I felt it put a lot of emphasis on how I should be and live, without offering much of a practical path to get there, resulting in a lot of guilt. Stoicism was incredibly refreshing in that it seemed to focus primarily on actual living, but what bothered me after a while was that 1) it was practical to a fault, as in it didn't provide me with much of a broader framework of ideas and beliefs about reality, and 2) it ultimately still wasn't really all that practical, but rather seemed to be more descriptive: this is how a stoic does things. go and be that way. While definitely a step up from Christianity in the practical realm, it was only when I came across (zen) buddhism that I felt that I had found something that not only scratched my theoretical itches (I'd probably have been a theologian or monk had I remained 'in the fold'), but something that was , often frustratingly, focused on practice. Every book or article or lecture would regularly interrupt the wonderful thoughts that tickled my brain with some annoying variation on "this is just words, and they're useless if you don't sit and practice". The very fact that I find myself struggling more than ever with putting the buddhist-but-stoicism-compatible stuff into practice is a huge step forward for me, because it means that I'm actually engaging with these ideas, rather than just mentally masturbating to them.
- HNLurker2 8y ago
  Yes and they are ancient with few practicioners of what it preaches. One example would be Taleb but I couldn't think of a stoic group of people that truly live like that.
- 8y ago
maxxxxx 8y ago
I think with stoicism you have to be careful to actually be stoic and not just pretend to yourself to be stoic. There are quite a few stories of meditation practitioners and teachers who broke down after years of looking peaceful and serene to the outside but they were just pretending to others and also to themselves.
- triviatise 8y ago
  I havent read much about stoicism. But if I had to guess, being serene all the time is not being stoic. You should experience all the emotions, yet simultaneously realize you can be angry and still have peace. Because you can accept the feelings as natural. The question then becomes will you act on the anger or not act. Either way you then have peace with your decision.
- ozzyman700 8y ago
  Do you remember / have any references to these people? I am very interested in criticisms of stoicism.
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    From what I gather buddhism and stoicism share a lot of ways how to deal with external input and managing your mental state. I know more about buddhism and there have been quite a few articles about teachers who fell apart even after decades of practice because they hadn't really internalized them and were trying to "fake it till you make it".
billfruit 8y ago
I want to say that after reading Montaigne, I get the impression that he did not consider stoicism a reasonable way of life, especially with respect to the writings of Seneca. He saw the dangers when virtues are taken to extremes. He(Montaigne) was more impressed by the ideas of temperance and moderation as espoused by Plutarch.
perseusprime11 8y ago
None of these philosophies can be applied when the stakes get really high and personal.
- Allower 8y ago
  Sure they can, but only if you have practiced when the stakes were not high or personal.
- bhaak 8y ago
  That separates the real philosophers from the wannabes. The real philosophers can take it. Like when Sokrates and Seneca had to end their lives. They didn't lament the unjust verdicts but embraced it.
ericskiff 8y ago
If you're interested in this topic, I highly recommend William Irvine's "A guide to the good life: the ancient art of stoic joy" https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Good-Life-Ancient-Stoic/dp/1522632735 https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Good-Life-Ancient-Stoic/dp/1522... Its treatment of modern stoicism is uplifting, and I found that the overall philosophy (and even just the practice of having a set of values and philosophy) matched my personal beliefs well and gave me new tools to use. Overall - Stoicism as it was taught by Epictetus is more about freeing yourself from desire for things and the fear of losing them, and not about giving up all worldly things (that's Asceticism) I appreciate that the Stoic teachings allow for enjoyment of life and its fruits when that enjoyment is bounded by the good of "community feeling" or love for your common man. If the 80's "greed is good" movement had had a "but try to lift up others and don't be a dick", it may have been a more sustainable culture, and I hope that those of us disrupting things and building new systems figure out how to create societal benefits as well as wealth.
jes 8y ago
I have found both Stoicism and secular Buddhism to be right up my alley. I'm closing in on 60 years of age, and have had both major wins and major losses in my life. Today, I am generally at peace with whatever happens and my different moods; they come and go like the weather. I usually meditate for 15 - 30 minutes a day. The Buddhist concept of "no self" is something I'm reflecting on as well.
- HNLurker2 8y ago
  The closest thing I found to "no self" is the Radiohead song "how to disappear completely".
HNLurker2 8y ago
So Epictetus was a theist? Edit: what stops me from being a christian because both believed in god

162 points by andrelaszlo 8y ago

Millenials have learned a new word. Eye roll. You know, it's great if you want to be stoic, stiff upper lip, chin chin and all that. But could you please just keep it to yourself?

ggm 8y ago

Don't get angry with slaves could take on new relevance with an emerging underclass. I think we can all learn something from this.

HenryBemis 8y ago

One book that I had bought a few months back and started reading on Jan 1st is this The Daily Stoic: "366 Meditations on Wisdom, Perseverance, and the Art of Living" [1] It contains 366 quotes, one for every day. I usually read it in the morning, then I take a photo on my phone and I re-read it during lunch time. This way I can process it again and make sure I (try to) 'fix' one thing at a time. I have made this part of my "What the Most Successful People Do Before Breakfast" and "The Miracle Morning" combined-routine. [1]: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Daily-Stoic-Meditations-Perseverance-translations/dp/1781257655/ https://www.amazon.co.uk/Daily-Stoic-Meditations-Perseveranc...

krzysztof 8y ago
I also find this book really nicely written. Worth checking out if someone is interested more. Also Mark Aurelius Meditations are interesting read. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditations

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Topolomancer 8y ago

As befits HN, I also want to pitch the Meditations by Marcus Aurelius here. Being written for himself, it has a very different tone (no athletic coach, but rather a somewhat world-weary, if benevolent, uncle). Fundamentally, it treats similar ideas, though. I also stumbled over a very interesting quote from the article: > In other words, think of every unreasonable asshole you > have to deal with as part of God’s attempt to “turn you > into Olympic-class material.” This is a very powerful > trick. The _exact_ same trick is practiced in many (traditional) Christian faiths---but I have the feeling that placing it in that context would alienate many modern readers (and in the worst cases, it comes relatively close to the prosperity gospel stuff).

mud_dauber 8y ago
That quote was my main takeaway from the article. I agree, it's a great mind trick. Good call.
jurgenwerk 8y ago
What if Marcus Aurelius were a software developer? https://codeandtechno.com/posts/stoicism-for-developers/ https://codeandtechno.com/posts/stoicism-for-developers/
yesenadam 8y ago
I read a Buddhist thing, I forget what exactly, saying that when someone really bugs you in your life, think "Thank you, teacher of patience!". The gratefulness really turns things around magically. That was very helpful for me at that time in my life!
FabHK 8y ago
Let me take this opportunity to plug standardebooks.org (no affiliation) - nicely curated and carefully formatted free ebooks. They have a couple of books related to Stoicism. Here are the Meditations: https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/marcus-aurelius/meditations/george-long https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/marcus-aurelius/meditation... And The Enchiridion (by Epictetus): https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/epictetus/the-enchiridion/elizabeth-carter https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/epictetus/the-enchiridion/... And Seneca's Dialogues: https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/seneca/dialogues/aubrey-stewart https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/seneca/dialogues/aubrey-st...
- tsjq 8y ago
  This site is interesting. Thanks for sharing. Curious : whether the proofreading and formatting here are better than Gutenberg public domain ebooks ? And, whether taking the EPUB and converting to AZW3 using calibre gets the same features as taking the AZW3 from this website ?
  - FabHK 8y ago
    Let me quote from the "About" page: > HOW’S THIS DIFFERENT FROM PROJECT GUTENBERG OR OTHER FREE EBOOK SITES? > While there are plenty of places where you can download free and accurately-transcribed public domain ebooks, we feel the quality of those ebooks can often be greatly improved. > For example, Project Gutenberg, a major producer of public-domain ebooks, hosts epub and Kindle files that sometimes lack basic typographic necessities like curly quotes; some of those ebooks are automatically generated and can’t take full advantage of modern ereader technology like popup footnotes or popup tables of contents; they sometimes lack niceties like cover images and title pages; and the quality of individual ebook productions varies greatly. Not sure about the Calibre conversion. I normally convert EPUBs to MOBI using Calibre (and switching to left aligned, right ragged), but on StandardEbooks I've been downloading the AZW3.

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ourmandave 8y ago

CliffsNotes: "Forget it Jake. It's Chinatown."

phatle 8y ago

A good book on Stoic is: https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Good-Life-Ancient-Stoic/dp/0195374614 https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Good-Life-Ancient-Stoic/dp/0195... Very easy to read this book and growth mind. There are no abstraction here. Very pragmatics. For those who want to know/understand Stoic. I'm highly recommended.

ttcbj 8y ago
I agree, I got a lot of value from this book.
jacobolus 8y ago
I disliked this book. Just go to the original classical sources, instead of this watered down derivative. Reading this one felt to me like having a sequence of funny jokes explained pedantically, without ever getting to hear the original jokes.
- eswat 8y ago
  I can see why many would dislike this book vs. the sources, but it definitely makes the overall idea more palatable. Reading the Meditations isn't for everyone.
martin-adams 8y ago
As a newcomer to it, I found this book extremely helpful and instantly impactful to my daily life. That said, I find that you need to keep up the practice continually as its impact has a half life and fades over time.
- jackhack 8y ago
  almost as if the world has a limitless supply of "challenges". As you level-up, so do the challenges which force one to grow. Hopefully.

MattyRad 8y ago

I think being stoic is becoming increasingly valuable regarding today's politics. Vindictiveness and toxicity is reflected regularly in people that closely follow national politics, usually demonstrated by their desire to relieve their frustrations by venting their negative emotions. Like the author quotes, "it is not events that disturb people, it is their judgments concerning them." Letting things which are so far removed from your control affect your daily disposition seems exhausting and miserable.

TheOperator 8y ago
One of then side effects of the rise of identity politics is an explosion in victim complexes. It's just a bit of a race to the bottom effect where one group will argue X thing doesn't mean they're victims because their group are victims in Y way. There are just so many victims these days that victimhood doesn't even serve actual victims. The supply of victims outstrips the demand. Stoicism is so starkly opposed to victimhood and complaining that it comes as a breath of fresh air.

jaabe 8y ago

I think there is a lot of value in stoicism, but it never really worked for me, because accepting things aren’t my thing. Instead I prefer the Socratic approach to issues, where you actually try and discover solutions together. I know stoics took a lot of lessons from Socrates, and that you can’t be Socratic without a tad of stoicism, but I’ve also found asking questions to be better (for me) than letting things slide. Like with the cab-driver taking the long route. Sure you can let it slide, but I’ve never had politely asking about it break my tranquility.

FabHK 8y ago
But the fundamental lesson is that the cab driver's behaviour is not under your control. How you react to it, is. You might then decide to let it slide, or mention it, or even make a fuss about it - but you deploy the anger instrumentally by your volition; you are not consumed and controlled by your anger.
- heavenlyblue 8y ago
  I’ve got a friend who would act something like the parent comment: if a taxi guy diverges from the most efficient route, the friend would ask the driver why did that happen immediately. The truth is that I know that if I were in a situation like that as a drver, it would not take me much to lie to my friend if I needed to (whether I am taking advantage of him or it just happened this way). There are just too many variables for anyone to be able to call bullshit on all of them at once. Some people just like feeling in control. They just can’t admit they are not more often than not.
  - godshatter 8y ago
    There's also the chance that the longer route taken by the cab driver was for a reason. He knows about construction, or it's busy near there this time of day, or whatever. He might be doing it because it's safer. Of course, yes, he might be doing it because he's trying to bilk you out of a few bucks. Unless I take a cab all the time or something, I just chalk it up to the "cost of doing business" and go on with my day.

bootsz 8y ago

For those interested in learning more, I highly recommend Ryan Holiday's book The Obstacle is the Way which gives a great high-level modern take on stoicism. The classics are also obviously great too.

ohaideredevs 8y ago

Meditations gave me nothing that I didn't get from reading a few of Aurelius' quotes. One of those books that you expect to be great and it disappoints. The problem with stoicism is the same problem as the problems with Buddhism's eight-fold path; avoiding suffering is not living to the fullest. If that's your philosophy, what's the point of being alive? Stoicism/Buddhism works well in situations for which it was designed by Siddhartha - enduring your crappy slave existence. It makes sense to learn not to feel when all you feel is disappointment and lack of control. A bit defeatist, really. Enduring, while valuable, is not being proactive. It's effective, but it's no way to live long term.

GarrisonPrime 8y ago
I don’t see Stoicism as advocating avoidance of suffering or becoming numb to it, but rather being able to wisely take the suffering in context so as to avoid letting it irrationally overwhelm you.
gerbilly 8y ago
> avoiding suffering is not living to the fullest. But that's just it, buddhism does not advocate avoidance of suffering[1] at all. The buddhist 'path' is about using suffering as a raw material and transforming it. You can't be a buddhist without experiencing suffering, because you need to work with it. > Buddhism works well in situations for which it was designed by Siddhartha - enduring your crappy slave existence. Siddhartha was an indian prince who gave up that life to investigate suffering. He realized early that he would have suffered whether he stayed in the palace or not. Buddhism is not about enduring, it is about transforming. [1] Suffering as might be translated today as 'stress'.
- ohaideredevs 8y ago
  Nowhere in the fundamental Buddhist tenets did I see anything about "transforming." All I see is "Desire causes suffering, learn not to desire anything to free yourself from suffering." Which, to me, sounds a whole lot like monkhood, which I see as escapism; there is a reason that the most common story you hear in a monastery is "I used to be an alcoholic". I am genuinely interested in what people see in Buddhism beyond that - this is after literally decades of having the same debate with random strangers and reading provided sources.

scottlocklin 8y ago

Somehow Aurelius never took with me as a longer man, but Stockdale's accounts of the impact of stoicism on his life are pretty good. http://media.hoover.org/sites/default/files/documents/978-0-8179-3692-1_1.pdf http://media.hoover.org/sites/default/files/documents/978-0-... https://www.usna.edu/Ethics/_files/documents/stoicism1.pdf https://www.usna.edu/Ethics/_files/documents/stoicism1.pdf https://www.usna.edu/Ethics/_files/documents/Stoicism2.pdf https://www.usna.edu/Ethics/_files/documents/Stoicism2.pdf

sn41 8y ago

Is there a more energetic way of looking at life than stoicism? Stoicism seemed life-denying whenever I seemed to get knto it.

athenot 8y ago

I think of this as a variant of Postel's law (for TCP/IP): Be conservative in what you do, Be liberal in what you accept from others. Most major belief systems have the same concept of defining "winning at being human" as putting up with more crap and simultaneously taking the effort to overdeliver. As a society, this pulls us upward. On a continuum, there are 3 states: - A negative state, where we take/expect more than we deliver. At best, we require others to do us good before we ourselves do good, at worse we are unconcerned about other's good. It's also, at an individual level, the path of least resistance. - A neutral state, where we attempt to balance what we expect and what we deliver. In that state is the Golden Rule (do to others what you want them to do to you) and eye-for-an-eye (don't return more tort than the tort caused to you). Very loosely, this is where justice lives. - A positive state, where we attempt to give more than what we expect. This is the domain of mercy, stoicism and "turn the other cheek". It requires a personal cost/sacrifice in order to expect less yet still deliver what is good. This is also the domain of love.

swsieber 8y ago
I like that comparison. I stumbled upon another continuum some years ago, and I think it makes a good companion. In this one, both ends are bad, and the middle is good. It's especially useful for dealing with any type of devotion to cause (or a person): Optimism ---- Improver ---- Pessimism Though people tend to go from Optimism -> Pessimism (-> Improver). The problem with optimists is that they will "defend the indefensible. He is the jingo of the universe; he will say, “My cosmos, right or wrong.” He will be less inclined to the reform of things; more inclined to a sort of front-bench official answer to all attacks, soothing everyone with assurances. He will not wash the world, but whitewash the world." The problem with pessimists is "not that he chastises gods and men, but that he does not love what he chastises . . . [In being the so-called ‘candid friend,’ the pessimist is not really candid.] He is keeping something back—in his own gloomy pleasure in saying unpleasant things. He has a secret desire to hurt, not merely to help. . . . He is using the ugly knowledge which was allowed him [in order] to strengthen the army, to discourage people from joining it." An example of the "Improver" is (are) women: "Some stupid people started the idea that because women obviously back up their own people through everything, therefore women are blind and do not see anything. They can hardly have known any women. The same women who are ready to defend their men through thick and thin . . . are almost morbidly lucid about the thinness of [their] excuses or the thickness of [their] head[s]. . . . Love is not blind; that is the last thing that it is. Love is bound; and the more it is bound the less it is blind." [0] Quotes from G.K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy(Garden City, N.Y.: Image Books, 1959), pp. 69–71. [1] Arrangement of quotes taken from https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-c-hafen_love-is-not-blind-thoughts-college-students-faith-ambiguity/ https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-c-hafen_love-is-not-bli...

sametmax 8y ago

This is not at all "how to be a stoic". This is "what it is to be a stoic". It's nice to say you have to avoid reacting to things outside of your control. But how does one do that ? Stoicism fails at explaining any practical way of embrassing the teaching. It's strange since they were quite practical people, but you see that a often in philosophy: lots of theory, very few advices for practice. At least the buddhists suggest meditation as a tool to learn to act instead of reacting, and see things more objectively.

mercer 8y ago
I found stoicism to be stepping stone to buddhism for precisely this reason. One of the things that drove me away from Christianity is that, among other things, I felt it put a lot of emphasis on how I should be and live, without offering much of a practical path to get there, resulting in a lot of guilt. Stoicism was incredibly refreshing in that it seemed to focus primarily on actual living, but what bothered me after a while was that 1) it was practical to a fault, as in it didn't provide me with much of a broader framework of ideas and beliefs about reality, and 2) it ultimately still wasn't really all that practical, but rather seemed to be more descriptive: this is how a stoic does things. go and be that way. While definitely a step up from Christianity in the practical realm, it was only when I came across (zen) buddhism that I felt that I had found something that not only scratched my theoretical itches (I'd probably have been a theologian or monk had I remained 'in the fold'), but something that was , often frustratingly, focused on practice. Every book or article or lecture would regularly interrupt the wonderful thoughts that tickled my brain with some annoying variation on "this is just words, and they're useless if you don't sit and practice". The very fact that I find myself struggling more than ever with putting the buddhist-but-stoicism-compatible stuff into practice is a huge step forward for me, because it means that I'm actually engaging with these ideas, rather than just mentally masturbating to them.
HNLurker2 8y ago
Yes and they are ancient with few practicioners of what it preaches. One example would be Taleb but I couldn't think of a stoic group of people that truly live like that.
8y ago

maxxxxx 8y ago

I think with stoicism you have to be careful to actually be stoic and not just pretend to yourself to be stoic. There are quite a few stories of meditation practitioners and teachers who broke down after years of looking peaceful and serene to the outside but they were just pretending to others and also to themselves.

triviatise 8y ago
I havent read much about stoicism. But if I had to guess, being serene all the time is not being stoic. You should experience all the emotions, yet simultaneously realize you can be angry and still have peace. Because you can accept the feelings as natural. The question then becomes will you act on the anger or not act. Either way you then have peace with your decision.
ozzyman700 8y ago
Do you remember / have any references to these people? I am very interested in criticisms of stoicism.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  From what I gather buddhism and stoicism share a lot of ways how to deal with external input and managing your mental state. I know more about buddhism and there have been quite a few articles about teachers who fell apart even after decades of practice because they hadn't really internalized them and were trying to "fake it till you make it".

billfruit 8y ago

I want to say that after reading Montaigne, I get the impression that he did not consider stoicism a reasonable way of life, especially with respect to the writings of Seneca. He saw the dangers when virtues are taken to extremes. He(Montaigne) was more impressed by the ideas of temperance and moderation as espoused by Plutarch.

perseusprime11 8y ago

None of these philosophies can be applied when the stakes get really high and personal.

Allower 8y ago
Sure they can, but only if you have practiced when the stakes were not high or personal.
bhaak 8y ago
That separates the real philosophers from the wannabes. The real philosophers can take it. Like when Sokrates and Seneca had to end their lives. They didn't lament the unjust verdicts but embraced it.

ericskiff 8y ago

If you're interested in this topic, I highly recommend William Irvine's "A guide to the good life: the ancient art of stoic joy" https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Good-Life-Ancient-Stoic/dp/1522632735 https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Good-Life-Ancient-Stoic/dp/1522... Its treatment of modern stoicism is uplifting, and I found that the overall philosophy (and even just the practice of having a set of values and philosophy) matched my personal beliefs well and gave me new tools to use. Overall - Stoicism as it was taught by Epictetus is more about freeing yourself from desire for things and the fear of losing them, and not about giving up all worldly things (that's Asceticism) I appreciate that the Stoic teachings allow for enjoyment of life and its fruits when that enjoyment is bounded by the good of "community feeling" or love for your common man. If the 80's "greed is good" movement had had a "but try to lift up others and don't be a dick", it may have been a more sustainable culture, and I hope that those of us disrupting things and building new systems figure out how to create societal benefits as well as wealth.

jes 8y ago

I have found both Stoicism and secular Buddhism to be right up my alley. I'm closing in on 60 years of age, and have had both major wins and major losses in my life. Today, I am generally at peace with whatever happens and my different moods; they come and go like the weather. I usually meditate for 15 - 30 minutes a day. The Buddhist concept of "no self" is something I'm reflecting on as well.

HNLurker2 8y ago
The closest thing I found to "no self" is the Radiohead song "how to disappear completely".

HNLurker2 8y ago

So Epictetus was a theist? Edit: what stops me from being a christian because both believed in god