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Compare the US and Western Europe. Europe has lower Co2 emissions, smaller houses, and still maintains quality of life. No doubt you could go much further alon

Compare the US and Western Europe. Europe has lower Co2 emissions, smaller houses, and still maintains quality of life. No doubt you could go much further along that road. And what's wrong with wearing more clothes in the winter?!

llukas 8y ago
> And what's wrong with wearing more clothes in the winter?! Likely house lacking enough insulation - this is what is wrong.
- benj111 8y ago
  Well insulating the body is more efficient than insulating a whole house. Also each person can choose their own individual comfort level. I'm not averse to building insulation either though.
  - frosted-flakes 8y ago
    What, should I wear gloves too? That'll make typing really pleasant. When I'm working in a room that's less than about 17°C–18°C, my hands tend to get very cold, as do my feet.
    - benj111 8y ago
      You can wear gloves if you want, as I've tried to make clear I don't think theres anything wrong with wearing clothes indoors, I do personally draw the line at jumper and thicker socks in winter. There's nothing wrong with building insulation either. If your hands and feet are getting cold at 17-18c you're obviously blessed with a better climate than I.
      - frosted-flakes 8y ago
        I suppose I was being a bit confrontational there. Insulation and air sealing makes a huge difference, especially in cold climates like where I live, where it often gets down to -25°C or colder in winter. I live in a basement with very old, leaky windows, so the floor never really warms up. When I'm at my computer I tend to not move much, and in that position there's poor blood flow to my hands. I turn up the electric heater when I need to (electricity is very expensive here), but I normally rely on the gas stove at the other end of the house. I actually have no problem being outside when it's cold, and even prefer it over summer. The difference is that I don't stand in one position when I'm outside. When I'm outside I'm shovelling snow, turning a wrench, or walking.
        benj111 8y ago
        Don't worry about it :) If you get to -25c you get colder winters than me. It surprises me that you get cold at 17-18c, I wonder if its a draft, or you have poor circulation (Raynauds disease ?) Or maybe it because I have kids, so never actually get the chance to sit down.
      - llukas 8y ago
        Without properly insulated home you got all issues with water condensation etc. Setting temperature is almost orthogonal. delta T is not much different between 17-18 and 24 if it is -10 outside.
        benj111 8y ago
        Define properly insulated? When my house was built it has 1 inch of loft insulation. Now as far as I can tell there weren't condensation problems, but that wouldn't have been enough to keep the house warm through winter so you would still need extra heat/clothes/both. I do for the record now have over a foot of insulation in the loft and still require extra heating, and I put a jumper on.
        llukas 8y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_bridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_bridge
barry-cotter 8y ago
All but 13 US states are richer than the Netherlands.All but six are richer than Germany. All but five are richer than Belgium. Only Mississippi is poorer than France or the UK. Every single US state is richer than Italy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_between_U.S._states_and_sovereign_states_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_between_U.S._states... There is no way you are going to get Americans to voluntarily reduce their standard of living outside of a war. That applies to Europeans, Australians, Canadians, Chinese and everyone else too. Americans aren’t special. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with wearing more clothes in winter but it is a consistent vote loser, like all the other realistic proposals for individual action on climate change. This past winter I wore plenty of extra clothes but people like being able to walk around inside in a T-shirt and pants. Everywhere they can afford to they do it more or less as soon as it’s affirdable, maybe with a thirty year generation gap.
- benj111 8y ago
  "There is no way you are going to get Americans to voluntarily reduce their standard of living" My point is you don't have to reduce your standard of living (quality of life). Does the average American have a better standard of living than the Average European, and is it so much better that it accounts for the much higher carbon footprint? I've never voted for anyone on the basis of wearing more or less clothes. Id hazard a guess that most voters wouldn't identify it as a top 10 issue. Plus didn't Jimmy Carter tell people to wear a sweater?
  - barry-cotter 8y ago
    > Does the average American have a better standard of living than the Average European, and is it so much better that it accounts for the much higher carbon footprint? Yes. The only countries with higher average individual consumption than the US are Norway and Switzerland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_household_final_consumption_expenditure_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_household... The only country with bigger houses than the US is Australia. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/average-home-size-by-country/article27181802/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/average-h... Jimmy Carter wasn’t re-elected.

llukas 8y ago

> And what's wrong with wearing more clothes in the winter?! Likely house lacking enough insulation - this is what is wrong.

benj111 8y ago
Well insulating the body is more efficient than insulating a whole house. Also each person can choose their own individual comfort level. I'm not averse to building insulation either though.
- frosted-flakes 8y ago
  What, should I wear gloves too? That'll make typing really pleasant. When I'm working in a room that's less than about 17°C–18°C, my hands tend to get very cold, as do my feet.
  - benj111 8y ago
    You can wear gloves if you want, as I've tried to make clear I don't think theres anything wrong with wearing clothes indoors, I do personally draw the line at jumper and thicker socks in winter. There's nothing wrong with building insulation either. If your hands and feet are getting cold at 17-18c you're obviously blessed with a better climate than I.
    - frosted-flakes 8y ago
      I suppose I was being a bit confrontational there. Insulation and air sealing makes a huge difference, especially in cold climates like where I live, where it often gets down to -25°C or colder in winter. I live in a basement with very old, leaky windows, so the floor never really warms up. When I'm at my computer I tend to not move much, and in that position there's poor blood flow to my hands. I turn up the electric heater when I need to (electricity is very expensive here), but I normally rely on the gas stove at the other end of the house. I actually have no problem being outside when it's cold, and even prefer it over summer. The difference is that I don't stand in one position when I'm outside. When I'm outside I'm shovelling snow, turning a wrench, or walking.
      - benj111 8y ago
        Don't worry about it :) If you get to -25c you get colder winters than me. It surprises me that you get cold at 17-18c, I wonder if its a draft, or you have poor circulation (Raynauds disease ?) Or maybe it because I have kids, so never actually get the chance to sit down.
    - llukas 8y ago
      Without properly insulated home you got all issues with water condensation etc. Setting temperature is almost orthogonal. delta T is not much different between 17-18 and 24 if it is -10 outside.
      - benj111 8y ago
        Define properly insulated? When my house was built it has 1 inch of loft insulation. Now as far as I can tell there weren't condensation problems, but that wouldn't have been enough to keep the house warm through winter so you would still need extra heat/clothes/both. I do for the record now have over a foot of insulation in the loft and still require extra heating, and I put a jumper on.
        llukas 8y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_bridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_bridge

barry-cotter 8y ago

All but 13 US states are richer than the Netherlands.All but six are richer than Germany. All but five are richer than Belgium. Only Mississippi is poorer than France or the UK. Every single US state is richer than Italy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_between_U.S._states_and_sovereign_states_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_between_U.S._states... There is no way you are going to get Americans to voluntarily reduce their standard of living outside of a war. That applies to Europeans, Australians, Canadians, Chinese and everyone else too. Americans aren’t special. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with wearing more clothes in winter but it is a consistent vote loser, like all the other realistic proposals for individual action on climate change. This past winter I wore plenty of extra clothes but people like being able to walk around inside in a T-shirt and pants. Everywhere they can afford to they do it more or less as soon as it’s affirdable, maybe with a thirty year generation gap.

benj111 8y ago
"There is no way you are going to get Americans to voluntarily reduce their standard of living" My point is you don't have to reduce your standard of living (quality of life). Does the average American have a better standard of living than the Average European, and is it so much better that it accounts for the much higher carbon footprint? I've never voted for anyone on the basis of wearing more or less clothes. Id hazard a guess that most voters wouldn't identify it as a top 10 issue. Plus didn't Jimmy Carter tell people to wear a sweater?
- barry-cotter 8y ago
  > Does the average American have a better standard of living than the Average European, and is it so much better that it accounts for the much higher carbon footprint? Yes. The only countries with higher average individual consumption than the US are Norway and Switzerland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_household_final_consumption_expenditure_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_household... The only country with bigger houses than the US is Australia. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/average-home-size-by-country/article27181802/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/average-h... Jimmy Carter wasn’t re-elected.