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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamization_of_Xinjiang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamization_of_Xinjiang

by byw 8y ago

mirimir 8y ago
Huh. If that article is accurate, then China actually has a better claim on Xinjiang than the Uyghurs do. So is it accurate? Edit: But actually, China's behavior in the 18th and 19th centuries was worse. > Xinjiang consists of two main geographically, historically, and ethnically distinct regions with different historical names, Dzungaria north of the Tianshan Mountains and the Tarim Basin south of the Tianshan Mountains, before Qing China unified them into one political entity called Xinjiang province in 1884. At the time of the Qing conquest in 1759, Dzungaria was inhabited by the Dzongar people, a steppe dwelling, nomadic Mongol-related ethnic group who practiced Tibetan Buddhist. Meanwhile, the Tarim Basin was inhabited by sedentary, oasis dwelling, Turkic speaking Muslim farmers, now known as the Uyghur people. They were governed separately until 1884. The native Uyghur name for the Tarim Basin is Altishahr. > In the Dzungar genocide the Manchus exterminated the native Buddhist Dzungar Oirat Mongolic speaking people from their homeland of Dzungaria in Northern Xinjiang and resettled the area with a variety of different ethnic groups. > The Qing "final solution" of genocide to solve the problem of the Dzungar Mongols, made the Qing sponsored settlement of millions of Han Chinese, Hui, Turkestani Oasis people (Uyghurs) and Manchu Bannermen in Dzungaria possible, since the land was now devoid of Dzungars. Damn.
- thaumasiotes 8y ago
  > Uyghurs are Turkic in ethnicity and language, look very different from Han Chinese, and are typically Muslim. The name "Uyghur" goes back quite a long way, and originally refers to a Turkic group. Modern Uyghurs are only tenuously related to the ancient Uyghurs -- as noted, modern Uyghurs are visually distinct from the Chinese. Modern Uyghurs are a recent hybrid population between a Turkic group and a Caucasoid (Iranian?) group. Compare the Mongols, who do look like Chinese. I assumed you might be talking about some remote point in time during which the ancient Uyghurs were Jewish or Christian; that is where I got "also Buddhist" from. > If that article is accurate, then China actually has a better claim on Xinjiang than the Uyghurs do. > So is it accurate? If you're going to start talking about what things have been like in the region for centuries, this is kind of an embarrassing question to have to ask. > But actually, China's behavior in the 18th and 19th centuries was worse. What did China do in the 18th and 19th centuries? The Manchu emperor conquered Xinjiang over the objections of his Chinese officials, who took the position that it wasn't part of China and he had no business invading it. If (1) Germany conquered Poland, and then (2) Germany conquered France, why would France hold a grudge against Poland?
  - mirimir 8y ago
    It does say that the Qing committed genocide against the Dzungar Mongols. So that goes beyond "conquered". But the aspect that's hard to keep in mind is how far back China's relationship with Xinjiang (and Tibet, for that matter) goes. Centuries. So this is not just some post-WWII thing. Like China just occupied Xinjiang, and they're oppressing the locals. I mean, there's support (albeit fringe) among Mexicans and Mexican immigrants in the west and southwest for Reconquista. The argument that California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas ought to be part of Mexico. There's also some Native American support for secession from the US. The Comanche, for example. And really, indigenous Mexicans are really just Native Americans. In Mexico and Guatemala, once you get away from large cities, especially up in the mountains, Spanish is a second language for the locals. They fled to the mountains during Spanish colonization, and they've been there ever since. So the time frames for the colonization of the Americas by Europeans and China's interactions with Xinjiang overlapped considerably. And the many millions of Native American deaths could be considered, at least in part, genocide. Really, the Chinese are managing Uyghurs a lot like Americans managed surviving Native Americans. And how Canadians have even more recently managed the Inuit. So I get how China might tell foreigners to fsck off. Edit: > If you're going to start talking about what things have been like in the region for centuries, this is kind of an embarrassing question to have to ask. There are no "embarrassing questions". > The name "Uyghur" goes back quite a long way, and originally refers to a Turkic group. Modern Uyghurs are only tenuously related to the ancient Uyghurs -- as noted, modern Uyghurs are visually distinct from the Chinese. Modern Uyghurs are a recent hybrid population between a Turkic group and a Caucasoid (Iranian?) group. Compare the Mongols, who do look like Chinese. OK, so you argue that TFA is wrong about current Uyghurs being a "Turkic group". I'm getting the feeling that there's some anti-Chinese propaganda at play here. Just as there was anti-Russian propaganda about the Ukraine. Not that either the Chinses or the Russians are beyond criticism.
    - thaumasiotes 8y ago
      A couple of points: - Yes, the Qing wiped out the Dzunghars. But that was not a Chinese policy. That was a policy the Chinese objected to. - The Uyghurs are not survivors of the Dzunghar genocide. The Dzunghars were wiped out. The Uyghurs moved into the void left by the Dzunghars. This differs conceptually from indigenous Mexicans retreating into the mountains -- the Uyghurs look more like the Spanish in that analogy. - The two centuries since the conquest of Xinjiang or the American Revolution are not, from a historical viewpoint, a long time. Chinese relations with the area of Xinjiang go back thousands of years, not a trifling couple of centuries. The idea that this is a long-lasting situation comes across as strange. America is known for its exceptional newness as a country, not for its long-established traditions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamization_of_Xinjiang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamization_of_Xinjiang

by byw 8y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamization_of_Xinjiang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamization_of_Xinjiang

Huh. If that article is accurate, then China actually has a better claim on Xinjiang than the Uyghurs do. So is it accurate? Edit: But actually, China's behavior in the 18th and 19th centuries was worse. > Xinjiang consists of two main geographically, historically, and ethnically distinct regions with different historical names, Dzungaria north of the Tianshan Mountains and the Tarim Basin south of the Tianshan Mountains, before Qing China unified them into one political entity called Xinjiang province in 1884. At the time of the Qing conquest in 1759, Dzungaria was inhabited by the Dzongar people, a steppe dwelling, nomadic Mongol-related ethnic group who practiced Tibetan Buddhist. Meanwhile, the Tarim Basin was inhabited by sedentary, oasis dwelling, Turkic speaking Muslim farmers, now known as the Uyghur people. They were governed separately until 1884. The native Uyghur name for the Tarim Basin is Altishahr. > In the Dzungar genocide the Manchus exterminated the native Buddhist Dzungar Oirat Mongolic speaking people from their homeland of Dzungaria in Northern Xinjiang and resettled the area with a variety of different ethnic groups. > The Qing "final solution" of genocide to solve the problem of the Dzungar Mongols, made the Qing sponsored settlement of millions of Han Chinese, Hui, Turkestani Oasis people (Uyghurs) and Manchu Bannermen in Dzungaria possible, since the land was now devoid of Dzungars. Damn.

thaumasiotes 8y ago
> Uyghurs are Turkic in ethnicity and language, look very different from Han Chinese, and are typically Muslim. The name "Uyghur" goes back quite a long way, and originally refers to a Turkic group. Modern Uyghurs are only tenuously related to the ancient Uyghurs -- as noted, modern Uyghurs are visually distinct from the Chinese. Modern Uyghurs are a recent hybrid population between a Turkic group and a Caucasoid (Iranian?) group. Compare the Mongols, who do look like Chinese. I assumed you might be talking about some remote point in time during which the ancient Uyghurs were Jewish or Christian; that is where I got "also Buddhist" from. > If that article is accurate, then China actually has a better claim on Xinjiang than the Uyghurs do. > So is it accurate? If you're going to start talking about what things have been like in the region for centuries, this is kind of an embarrassing question to have to ask. > But actually, China's behavior in the 18th and 19th centuries was worse. What did China do in the 18th and 19th centuries? The Manchu emperor conquered Xinjiang over the objections of his Chinese officials, who took the position that it wasn't part of China and he had no business invading it. If (1) Germany conquered Poland, and then (2) Germany conquered France, why would France hold a grudge against Poland?
- mirimir 8y ago
  It does say that the Qing committed genocide against the Dzungar Mongols. So that goes beyond "conquered". But the aspect that's hard to keep in mind is how far back China's relationship with Xinjiang (and Tibet, for that matter) goes. Centuries. So this is not just some post-WWII thing. Like China just occupied Xinjiang, and they're oppressing the locals. I mean, there's support (albeit fringe) among Mexicans and Mexican immigrants in the west and southwest for Reconquista. The argument that California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas ought to be part of Mexico. There's also some Native American support for secession from the US. The Comanche, for example. And really, indigenous Mexicans are really just Native Americans. In Mexico and Guatemala, once you get away from large cities, especially up in the mountains, Spanish is a second language for the locals. They fled to the mountains during Spanish colonization, and they've been there ever since. So the time frames for the colonization of the Americas by Europeans and China's interactions with Xinjiang overlapped considerably. And the many millions of Native American deaths could be considered, at least in part, genocide. Really, the Chinese are managing Uyghurs a lot like Americans managed surviving Native Americans. And how Canadians have even more recently managed the Inuit. So I get how China might tell foreigners to fsck off. Edit: > If you're going to start talking about what things have been like in the region for centuries, this is kind of an embarrassing question to have to ask. There are no "embarrassing questions". > The name "Uyghur" goes back quite a long way, and originally refers to a Turkic group. Modern Uyghurs are only tenuously related to the ancient Uyghurs -- as noted, modern Uyghurs are visually distinct from the Chinese. Modern Uyghurs are a recent hybrid population between a Turkic group and a Caucasoid (Iranian?) group. Compare the Mongols, who do look like Chinese. OK, so you argue that TFA is wrong about current Uyghurs being a "Turkic group". I'm getting the feeling that there's some anti-Chinese propaganda at play here. Just as there was anti-Russian propaganda about the Ukraine. Not that either the Chinses or the Russians are beyond criticism.
  - thaumasiotes 8y ago
    A couple of points: - Yes, the Qing wiped out the Dzunghars. But that was not a Chinese policy. That was a policy the Chinese objected to. - The Uyghurs are not survivors of the Dzunghar genocide. The Dzunghars were wiped out. The Uyghurs moved into the void left by the Dzunghars. This differs conceptually from indigenous Mexicans retreating into the mountains -- the Uyghurs look more like the Spanish in that analogy. - The two centuries since the conquest of Xinjiang or the American Revolution are not, from a historical viewpoint, a long time. Chinese relations with the area of Xinjiang go back thousands of years, not a trifling couple of centuries. The idea that this is a long-lasting situation comes across as strange. America is known for its exceptional newness as a country, not for its long-established traditions.