7 ms·

Why would I go to the dump? If I was targeting you, I would just be searching your trash and come across your bulbs that way. Your wifi network would be pretty

by tobtoh 8y ago

Why would I go to the dump? If I was targeting you, I would just be searching your trash and come across your bulbs that way. Your wifi network would be pretty easy to find given it would be in the vicinity of the trash bin.

moate 8y ago
Exactly my thoughts. If I were this class of criminal, I'd be searching dumpsters or trash cans with the assumption that the network would probably be within 500 feet of that location. It wouldn't be super helpful if I was trying to target a singular person but if I was just going to look for a bulb to use this exploit on, similar to how ATM hackers look for the models they know how to crack, I'd probably be able to find one eventually SOMEWHERE.
sleepybrett 8y ago
Ok so let's pretend I have a 10 led smartbulbs in my house ( future state, most people have less than 10 ). Let's say their mean time to failure is a six months ( I think this is significantly lowballed ). That means there will be 1 lightbulb in the trash on average every two to three weeks. This number is highly unrealistic but whatever. So you are going to have to dig through my trash (assuming curbside (it isn't) two to three times to find a blub. My door lock is easier to compromise. Just walk in and walk out with my server. Fact of the matter is, if you are the target of someone, there are better ways... and if this is just an opportunistic guy that got some lightbulbs off the back of an e-cycler truck and one of them happens to be mine. He can have whatever he can find on my network. TL;DR: The lock on your front door is easier to exploit, and the lock on your back door is probably even worse.
- mirkules 8y ago
  I can actually see this as a useful attack vector on criminal organizations, since LEOs can legally search through trash without a warrant [0] They could collect the trash every week, obtain wifi passwords, and obtain a warrant to perform eavesdropping on the network. [0]https://criminal-law.freeadvice.com/criminal-law/arrests_and_searches/cops_search_garbage.htm https://criminal-law.freeadvice.com/criminal-law/arrests_and...
- microtherion 8y ago
  The Hollywood exploit would be to take out the light bulb with a BB gun through an open window, and then go through the trash THAT night.
  - vxNsr 8y ago
    or cause a power surge blowing the bulb out.
jonknee 8y ago
You throw out an LED smart bulb maybe once every few years? Probably one of the single worst ways to target an individual.
- LyndsySimon 8y ago
  That's not really how it works though - if I were targeting you, I wouldn't think "I'm going to go through this guy's trash and look for smart bulbs". I'd think "I'm going to go through this guy's trash and see if I find anything useful." If I find bank statements or other correspondence containing personal information, all of that gets added to the "dossier." If I find a hard drive, I'd plug it in and poke around. If I found a birthday card, I'd check the date it was mailed and have a good idea of when you were born. If I found a smart bulb... well, now this is just one more small extension of your personal attack surface. Take this a bit further - what happens when the healthcare startup with 50 or so employees installs smart bulbs? Let's say the bulbs last on average five years, and they have 50 bulbs in their offices. That's ten bulbs failing per annum, giving a ~80% chance of finding a smart bulb in their trash in a given month. An attacker gets one of those, and is able to connect to their internal network over WiFi. From there they can poke around on internal machines, and would probably even have access to a whitelisted origin IP for SSHing into production machines.
  - jsight 8y ago
    So, this company buys 50 smart bulbs (instead of smart switches) and then connects them to a sensitive wifi network. I think they have bigger issues than whether the bulbs themselves are secure (even if they are the manufacturer).
    - djsumdog 8y ago
      The post was making an example from just finding attack vectors. This is just one of many attack vectors, but it's still a viable vector for attack. What if it's a small business that might have important trade secrets, but doesn't meet the strict requirements for HIPPA/PCI/etc? It's still one more vector that doesn't need to exist, because there is no reason what-so-ever that you need a Wi-Fi chip inside your light blub!
Symbiote 8y ago
In Denmark, where putting electronics in the normal trash is forbidden[1], there's a small bin for electronics beside the others (metal, plastic, cardboard, paper, food waste, other waste). The electronics bin in my building's basement is emptied around every 8 weeks, so there's more chance for someone to find them. (I know several people who search through these bins and repair electronics with only minor faults, which is excellent for reducing waste etc.) [1] That's what this symbol means, on most electronics you buy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_Electrical_and_Electronic_Equipment_Directive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_Electrical_and_Electroni...
- craftyguy 8y ago
  > I know several people who search through these bins and repair electronics with only minor faults, which is excellent for reducing waste etc. I feel like I might be one of those people if this excellent service was available in the US!

by tobtoh 8y ago

moate 8y ago

Exactly my thoughts. If I were this class of criminal, I'd be searching dumpsters or trash cans with the assumption that the network would probably be within 500 feet of that location. It wouldn't be super helpful if I was trying to target a singular person but if I was just going to look for a bulb to use this exploit on, similar to how ATM hackers look for the models they know how to crack, I'd probably be able to find one eventually SOMEWHERE.

sleepybrett 8y ago

Ok so let's pretend I have a 10 led smartbulbs in my house ( future state, most people have less than 10 ). Let's say their mean time to failure is a six months ( I think this is significantly lowballed ). That means there will be 1 lightbulb in the trash on average every two to three weeks. This number is highly unrealistic but whatever. So you are going to have to dig through my trash (assuming curbside (it isn't) two to three times to find a blub. My door lock is easier to compromise. Just walk in and walk out with my server. Fact of the matter is, if you are the target of someone, there are better ways... and if this is just an opportunistic guy that got some lightbulbs off the back of an e-cycler truck and one of them happens to be mine. He can have whatever he can find on my network. TL;DR: The lock on your front door is easier to exploit, and the lock on your back door is probably even worse.

mirkules 8y ago
I can actually see this as a useful attack vector on criminal organizations, since LEOs can legally search through trash without a warrant [0] They could collect the trash every week, obtain wifi passwords, and obtain a warrant to perform eavesdropping on the network. [0]https://criminal-law.freeadvice.com/criminal-law/arrests_and_searches/cops_search_garbage.htm https://criminal-law.freeadvice.com/criminal-law/arrests_and...
microtherion 8y ago
The Hollywood exploit would be to take out the light bulb with a BB gun through an open window, and then go through the trash THAT night.
- vxNsr 8y ago
  or cause a power surge blowing the bulb out.

jonknee 8y ago

You throw out an LED smart bulb maybe once every few years? Probably one of the single worst ways to target an individual.

LyndsySimon 8y ago
That's not really how it works though - if I were targeting you, I wouldn't think "I'm going to go through this guy's trash and look for smart bulbs". I'd think "I'm going to go through this guy's trash and see if I find anything useful." If I find bank statements or other correspondence containing personal information, all of that gets added to the "dossier." If I find a hard drive, I'd plug it in and poke around. If I found a birthday card, I'd check the date it was mailed and have a good idea of when you were born. If I found a smart bulb... well, now this is just one more small extension of your personal attack surface. Take this a bit further - what happens when the healthcare startup with 50 or so employees installs smart bulbs? Let's say the bulbs last on average five years, and they have 50 bulbs in their offices. That's ten bulbs failing per annum, giving a ~80% chance of finding a smart bulb in their trash in a given month. An attacker gets one of those, and is able to connect to their internal network over WiFi. From there they can poke around on internal machines, and would probably even have access to a whitelisted origin IP for SSHing into production machines.
- jsight 8y ago
  So, this company buys 50 smart bulbs (instead of smart switches) and then connects them to a sensitive wifi network. I think they have bigger issues than whether the bulbs themselves are secure (even if they are the manufacturer).
  - djsumdog 8y ago
    The post was making an example from just finding attack vectors. This is just one of many attack vectors, but it's still a viable vector for attack. What if it's a small business that might have important trade secrets, but doesn't meet the strict requirements for HIPPA/PCI/etc? It's still one more vector that doesn't need to exist, because there is no reason what-so-ever that you need a Wi-Fi chip inside your light blub!

Symbiote 8y ago

In Denmark, where putting electronics in the normal trash is forbidden[1], there's a small bin for electronics beside the others (metal, plastic, cardboard, paper, food waste, other waste). The electronics bin in my building's basement is emptied around every 8 weeks, so there's more chance for someone to find them. (I know several people who search through these bins and repair electronics with only minor faults, which is excellent for reducing waste etc.) [1] That's what this symbol means, on most electronics you buy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_Electrical_and_Electronic_Equipment_Directive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_Electrical_and_Electroni...

craftyguy 8y ago
> I know several people who search through these bins and repair electronics with only minor faults, which is excellent for reducing waste etc. I feel like I might be one of those people if this excellent service was available in the US!