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> Issue: Control systems for most of the city’s 3,000 traffic signals date to the 1960s and make it harder for the department to manage congestion. Cost (per in

by snarfy 8y ago

> Issue: Control systems for most of the city’s 3,000 traffic signals date to the 1960s and make it harder for the department to manage congestion. Cost (per intersection): $175,000 to $735,000 That cost seems outrageous. Are traffic signal control boxes really that expensive?

clarkmoody 8y ago
It's a government expenditure, so the market signals of profit and loss cannot work to keep costs under control. Classic monopoly pricing at play. The outrageous prices could also be attributed to good old-fashioned cronyism: some city council member's brother owns a local civil engineering firm that gets a 10-year contract and names its own price.
- snowwindwaves 8y ago
  Have you ever worked for a government or public institution? Everything takes 5x longer than it should.
syn0byte 8y ago
In one case I've heard around the water cooler; A city's intersections were(are?) rocking Sun SPARC servers to do all the control stuff. Yes, each intersection apparently had its own. I don't know if I ever really believed it until this article confirmed that kind of cost.
mymythisisthis 8y ago
Upgrading traffic systems will help with self-driving cars. It's one of the missing puzzle pieces. Think of what modern cameras and data storage, would do for innovative change.
mattkrause 8y ago
I'm also having a hard time believing that Philly has half a billion dollars worth of traffic signals.... Unit costs can be misleading if they're hiding a lot of non-recurring engineering costs. I can easily believe it would cost $175,000 (or more) to replace a single set of traffic signals, especially if they are built from scratch and need to interface with some ancient system. However, the 2nd, 3rd, .... 3,000th signals ought to be progressively cheaper as things get worked out.
gerbilly 8y ago
Yes, they are. Just put in roundabouts.[1] No control system costs anymore! [1] Why are there hardly any roundabouts in north america? Because there's no money to be made from them.
- reaperducer 8y ago
  Why are there hardly any roundabouts in north america? Because there's no money to be made from them. I'm not sure why people think this. Maybe people don't get around enough? I see roundabouts all the time from Seattle to Nevada to Utah, and beyond. The problem with roundabouts is that they don't scale. In the 60's and 70's, New Jersey had three massive roundabouts on Route 23 where it now intersects with I-287. They had to be removed in the 80's because they simply couldn't handle rush hour traffic.
xxpor 8y ago
Not only are they expensive, they're already out of date when they're being built. https://twitter.com/dongho_chang/status/960645535311937538 https://twitter.com/dongho_chang/status/960645535311937538 Linux 2.6.39 in 2018.

by snarfy 8y ago

clarkmoody 8y ago

It's a government expenditure, so the market signals of profit and loss cannot work to keep costs under control. Classic monopoly pricing at play. The outrageous prices could also be attributed to good old-fashioned cronyism: some city council member's brother owns a local civil engineering firm that gets a 10-year contract and names its own price.

snowwindwaves 8y ago
Have you ever worked for a government or public institution? Everything takes 5x longer than it should.

syn0byte 8y ago

In one case I've heard around the water cooler; A city's intersections were(are?) rocking Sun SPARC servers to do all the control stuff. Yes, each intersection apparently had its own. I don't know if I ever really believed it until this article confirmed that kind of cost.

mymythisisthis 8y ago

Upgrading traffic systems will help with self-driving cars. It's one of the missing puzzle pieces. Think of what modern cameras and data storage, would do for innovative change.

mattkrause 8y ago

I'm also having a hard time believing that Philly has half a billion dollars worth of traffic signals.... Unit costs can be misleading if they're hiding a lot of non-recurring engineering costs. I can easily believe it would cost $175,000 (or more) to replace a single set of traffic signals, especially if they are built from scratch and need to interface with some ancient system. However, the 2nd, 3rd, .... 3,000th signals ought to be progressively cheaper as things get worked out.

gerbilly 8y ago

Yes, they are. Just put in roundabouts.[1] No control system costs anymore! [1] Why are there hardly any roundabouts in north america? Because there's no money to be made from them.

reaperducer 8y ago
Why are there hardly any roundabouts in north america? Because there's no money to be made from them. I'm not sure why people think this. Maybe people don't get around enough? I see roundabouts all the time from Seattle to Nevada to Utah, and beyond. The problem with roundabouts is that they don't scale. In the 60's and 70's, New Jersey had three massive roundabouts on Route 23 where it now intersects with I-287. They had to be removed in the 80's because they simply couldn't handle rush hour traffic.

xxpor 8y ago

Not only are they expensive, they're already out of date when they're being built. https://twitter.com/dongho_chang/status/960645535311937538 https://twitter.com/dongho_chang/status/960645535311937538 Linux 2.6.39 in 2018.