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Solving Depression with Analytical Thinking

howard941 8y ago
Lest anyone take the advice in the OP to heart, there is no shame in obtaining a bankruptcy discharge - it's just another tool in your financial toolbox. Moreover, it's needlessly stressful and harmful to struggle under the burden of managing someone else's debt while also going through a divorce and suffering a serious illness. I marvel at the dude's strength and if he were participating in the comment thread I'd ask if in retrospect he'd change anything.
- hirundo 8y ago
  There is shame in breaking a promise. Bankruptcy breaks a promise. Being a tool in your toolbox, even being necessary some times, doesn't neutralize a shamefully act, to the extent that your choices contributed to it.
  - rootusrootus 8y ago
    It is as shameful as the bank charging you interest. Which is to say, not shameful. It's just business.
    - hirundo 8y ago
      Charging interest within a voluntary agreement is shameful? Or just for a bank? Why? This point of view seems to be associated with Islam, is that your faith?
      - andrepd 8y ago
        What? Re-read the comment you just replied too.
      - beagle3 8y ago
        I am not OP and not muslim, but I hold a similar PoV: The bank is a business, not your friend. In the 2008 crisis, banks (and hotels and many other businesses) had mailed the keys back to lenders when their non-recourse loans were underwater. As long as one does not fraudulently acquire the credit, and makes a good faith effort to repay it, there is no problem. It is NOT shameful for the bank to take interest, which takes into account both the lost-time-value-of-money (inflation and opportunity cost) and the probability of default. They are a business, and the interest takes defaulting loans into account. It is NOT shameful to use bankruptcy if you qualify. It wasn't added to the legal code to give people a "get out of jail free" card - It was added because, done right, it is more helpful to society at large (as well as individuals) to be able to reset debts that cannot be paid. So these things are as shameful, which is to say, not shameful.
      - salawat 8y ago
        Islam is mot the only religion which frowns on usury. Christianity for most of its' history condemned the practice, even if in modern times no one bothers to enforce it. It was quite a contentious topic. St. Anselm, and Thomas Aquinas both condemned the practice, and the only positive (in favor of contemplation) I can find in a 3 minute search were the musings of Cardinal Hostiensis in the 13th century which were never elevated to the level of doctrine. All in all, it is somewhat ironic that in the western world, a large part of the inner workings of the economy is predicated on practices condemned or otherwise historically shunned by the major 3 religions. Yes, yes, I know, times change, women can work and vote, slavery ended, and all that, but there's still value in understanding those pesky historical details to keep one in the present from shooting oneself in the foot. The main gist of Christian theological thinking though is that living on interest charged to others is immoral and sinful. Lending is a practice through which those that can absorb risk do so, with the hope of some reward come success of the venture. Lending only goes foul when the lender places their right to profit ahead of of their obligation to shoulder risk. My two cents anyway.
  - throwaway123x2 8y ago
    The bank charged you interest based on what they thought the risk was of you breaking that promise. They knew the risk when they put out that loan.
    - hirundo 8y ago
      True, but I feel I would still feel shame in failing to keep my word, regardless of the intention of the other party, as long as they keep theirs.
      - throwaway123x2 8y ago
        Of course you should /intend/ to, when all else is equal. But once the cost to yourself of keeping that commitment skyrockets, it's just not worth it. Think of it as a captain staying with his ship. All else being equal the captain should stay on his ship. But if the ship is damaged beyond repair and it's sinking, a human life is far more valuable than a ship. Bankruptcy is leaving the ship when things are too far gone to save.
      - CiPHPerCoder 8y ago
        > True, but I feel I would still feel shame Please keep your shame to yourself. Your other comments in this thread sound like you're trying to invoke your shame upon others for declaring bankruptcy. If your intention was consistently "I would still feel shame" rather than "You should feel shame", that's fine, but please make that clearer.
        hirundo 8y ago
        I would still feel shame, to the extent that the bankruptcy was due to my choices. I would judge others on the same basis.
        beagle3 8y ago
        May I ask what your cultural background is? "Choice" is a funny concept. There are cultures that made people choose between Seppuku and shame, with Seppuku being the honorable "choice". You seem to be accepting and even advocating a financial version of that "choice". It's not quite as common these days, and for the best IMO.
  - howard941 8y ago
    The process itself is demeaning and success carries ten years of lasting, painful consequences. Moral pronouncements of shame and that one is a promise-breaker are superfluous and cruel.
  - beagle3 8y ago
    The implicit promise was "I will act lawfully, which means that I will do my best to repay; however, if I find I am unable to repay, I will lawfully use the legal recourse for this situation, bankruptcy". It was not broken. One can't just declare themselves bankrupt - you have to go through the legal system to do that, which supposedly verifies that you indeed qualify for the protections afforded by bankruptcy. Note that this is the same legal system that enforces the lender's rights in case you are able to repay but will not.
luckylion 8y ago
I don't think anybody is "solving depression" by tackling problems some way or another. Rather: you're getting out of your depression and that allows you to tackle problems.
- 1337shadow 8y ago
  chicken and egg, are you in depression because of the problems you have ? Then solving them one by one will eventually end up removing depression (that was the case for me)
  - mello151 8y ago
    Being depressed and depression aren't the same thing though. I feel like OP just used described how he fixed a problem that had him down. Depression can occur without any real problems or issues. It's not something you can "just fix" by paying your bills.
    - braythwayt 8y ago
      I have suffered from depression. I have suffered from financial woes. I have discussed these matters with professionals. Adverse life events can trigger depression episodes in some people, and when you’re in an episode, adverse circumstances can both feel worse and lengthen the time in the episode. Finding a way to solve the problems or avoid them entirely is thus an important part of being as healthy as possible, but it is not in and of itself sufficient for maintaining or returning to health.
    - kzrdude 8y ago
      I have suffered from depression and there was a long list of issues that were solved along the way, in hindsight it feels like a step of stairs that had to be climbed, and finally I was out of the negative spiral and felt free of it.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- 8y ago
blastbeat 8y ago
I know some people, who are in complete paralysis thanks to (overly) analytic thinking. On the other hand, from all the people I know having a major depression, nobody was able to advance simply by analyzing, deciding, acting, and without help. That said, it might worked for the author, but I doubt that it would work that smoothly for the majority of people with problem paralysis, let alone depression.
beagle3 8y ago
The recurring theme in almost all accounts of depression that I've read is the lack of will and/or care to get out of the state (and/or care for much of anything). This guy had a real problem - several of them, actually, and I admire him for pulling himself by the bootstraps going up; and for avoiding paralysis which is indeed an issue in situations like this. But being depressed for specific reasons (marriage failure, financial problems), solvable or not, is very different from clinical depression - which may look similar on the outside, but doesn't have a good reason. I don't want to belittle anyone or anything, but ... I've read countless descriptions of depression, and this one is unlike the others. The author may have suffered from real depression, but I don't believe his experience is applicable to other cases. To each his own, but the reason I'm pointing this out is to (hopefully) stop HNrs who are unaware of this, who may show this to their clinically depressed friends or family and say "see, you just need some analytical thinking". It may work - some people manage to overcome schizophrenia with analytical thinking - but they are AFAIK a tiny minority.
mykowebhn 8y ago
I wonder if it's not so much analytical thinking as opposed to just going out and doing something. Several forms of depression are exacerbated by ruminative thinking [1]. I'm not sure many depressed people would be able to successfully navigate the steps involved for analytical thinking without falling back into rumination. Rather than attempting analytical thinking first, I think it'd be much easier to initiate a simple activity, walk around the block, see a happy movie, visit a bookstore. Once one gets out of this cycle of ruminative thinking can one have the wherewithal to begin analytical thinking. [1] https://psychcentral.com/blog/why-ruminating-is-unhealthy-and-how-to-stop/ https://psychcentral.com/blog/why-ruminating-is-unhealthy-an...
drinfinity 8y ago
Dude, you had some unfortunate life events piled on top of each other causing turmoil. I sincerely don't wish that to happen to anyone and I congratulate you on feeling better, but.. I want to point out that your episode is not to be compared with actual sustained major depression, which will _eat you alive_. So utterly and completely will your soul be crushed that taking your own life will feel redundant, unnecessary. You have literally no idea of how deep this rabbit hole goes, thank god, but your advice trivialises the depth of depression and I have to wonder how this got so high on HN.. This is a blog with one post, one.
- Causality1 8y ago
  Exactly. That sounded nothing like clinical depression. That was a shitty few months that he fixed by getting a new job and paying off a massive debt.
- mykowebhn 8y ago
  Bizarrely, and maybe even unethically since we're talking about depression here, I think this blog post is a not too subtle way to sell their book on rock climbing.
- rezeroed 8y ago
  A similar thing happens with stories of burnout - people unaware of where that can take a person.
- devinjflick 8y ago
  I completely agree, what the author of the posts describes is traumatic life events, which often can be confused with clinical depression. Clinical depression is frequently worsened with analytic thinking, as analytic thinking, when depressed, reinforces the depression and doesn't pull you out of it. In clinical depression your brain chemistry is off in a way that doesn't rebound easily. Just "thinking about solving the problem" doesn't actually work and typically worsens symptoms. There's a reason why mindfulness and meditation show great results when used to treat reoccurring clinical depression. It's expressly because it allows you to escape analytical thinking and "doing" modes of thought. I suspect this climbed quickly on hacker news for two reasons. First the type of people that frequent here are intellectual types that believe "thinking about problems" is the best way to solve a problem and depression is just another problem to be solved. The second is the way that HackerNews ranks posts, where an upvoted post with a high/near equal number of comments rockets to the first page. The blog post is purely anecdotal, lacks any scientific basis, lacks a medical diagnosis, and suggests an oversimplified solution to a complex problem that the author is not an expert on. In essence it's a crap post promoting a rock climbing book.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
rmellow 8y ago
This corroborates how I got out of my own depression. No episode in particular caused it, just growing up around shitty people that mined my self-confidence and social skills. How did I get out of it? Just like the author, a switch flipped. I could keep the status quo and be miserable, or I could do something about It. Read that again: We require a definition of "It". I did therapy for years, which helped me learn how to organize my feelings and know myself better. What happened is that eventually I was able to identify all of what was making me sick - before that, I couldn't put it into words, I was simply miserable. In my particular case it stemmed from spending my early childhood in a first world country and moving back to our third world country when I was 7. Dealing with the aggressiveness and irrationality of my native culture is something that left me unable to successfully integrate in that society. This in turn of course means I had few friends, trouble finding a girlfriend and difficulty entertaining myself. I had to find a way out. Moving out of course would be difficult. Third world salaries, family didn't support my decision to leave the country, no good way to insert myself in a first world society with security. Fast forward 10 years: I managed to immigrate back into the first world through an education visa and convert it into a work visa. Have stable work with good pay, like-minded friendships, amazing girlfriend. I still have "scars" from back then: some social awkwardness is still there, and sometimes I have blue days. But I know how to manage myself and work to identify and attend to what's bothering me. The takeaway for me (not a doctor) is that some forms of depression manifest themselves in a healthy nervous system that's exposed to an adverse environment. We have some control over the environments we're in and that's where we should act. Standard disclaimer - still look for a doctor. Therapy was enough for me, but it may be the case you needs drugs. Seek help. While you don't have to do this alone, you can take ownership and try to solve your problems, even though it might take years. It's worth fighting for.
stiff 8y ago
The article is titled "Avoiding Problem Paralysis". The HN submission title is rather unfortunate, I think.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
aszantu 8y ago
My depression only lifted after I switched to keto, I've been depressed for 30 years. Low energy and everything was a drag until the switch... People(psychiatrists and psychologists) don't want to hear it, but food is connected to how we feel.
- slothtrop 8y ago
  I think this is understated. I went a different direction, but all the same, I think self-experimentation / personal science is worthwhile to that end. Diet and exercise should be the first line of defense.
sammycdubs 8y ago
One of the most insidious aspects of depression is thinking that you can solve it easily on your own. Holding the idea of "if I just do x, y, and z then I'll be ok" in front of you, then consistently failing cements the feeling that it's "your fault".
antisthenes 8y ago
> My first real experience with depression occurred when I was 25. I had recently separated from my ex-wife, and our divorce was pending. > My ex-wife had a tumultuous upbringing — her mother walked out on the family when she was eight, and her father died when she was 19, leaving her effectively the head of her household which included two younger brothers. She was at a time of great need, and we decided to get married because we were deeply in love, and I wanted to contribute to her stability. Incredible amount of red flags here for a working marriage. I'm sorry this happened to OP, but I'm really surprised his parents didn't try to stop this way before it happened.

Lest anyone take the advice in the OP to heart, there is no shame in obtaining a bankruptcy discharge - it's just another tool in your financial toolbox. Moreover, it's needlessly stressful and harmful to struggle under the burden of managing someone else's debt while also going through a divorce and suffering a serious illness. I marvel at the dude's strength and if he were participating in the comment thread I'd ask if in retrospect he'd change anything.

hirundo 8y ago
There is shame in breaking a promise. Bankruptcy breaks a promise. Being a tool in your toolbox, even being necessary some times, doesn't neutralize a shamefully act, to the extent that your choices contributed to it.
- rootusrootus 8y ago
  It is as shameful as the bank charging you interest. Which is to say, not shameful. It's just business.
  - hirundo 8y ago
    Charging interest within a voluntary agreement is shameful? Or just for a bank? Why? This point of view seems to be associated with Islam, is that your faith?
    - andrepd 8y ago
      What? Re-read the comment you just replied too.
    - beagle3 8y ago
      I am not OP and not muslim, but I hold a similar PoV: The bank is a business, not your friend. In the 2008 crisis, banks (and hotels and many other businesses) had mailed the keys back to lenders when their non-recourse loans were underwater. As long as one does not fraudulently acquire the credit, and makes a good faith effort to repay it, there is no problem. It is NOT shameful for the bank to take interest, which takes into account both the lost-time-value-of-money (inflation and opportunity cost) and the probability of default. They are a business, and the interest takes defaulting loans into account. It is NOT shameful to use bankruptcy if you qualify. It wasn't added to the legal code to give people a "get out of jail free" card - It was added because, done right, it is more helpful to society at large (as well as individuals) to be able to reset debts that cannot be paid. So these things are as shameful, which is to say, not shameful.
    - salawat 8y ago
      Islam is mot the only religion which frowns on usury. Christianity for most of its' history condemned the practice, even if in modern times no one bothers to enforce it. It was quite a contentious topic. St. Anselm, and Thomas Aquinas both condemned the practice, and the only positive (in favor of contemplation) I can find in a 3 minute search were the musings of Cardinal Hostiensis in the 13th century which were never elevated to the level of doctrine. All in all, it is somewhat ironic that in the western world, a large part of the inner workings of the economy is predicated on practices condemned or otherwise historically shunned by the major 3 religions. Yes, yes, I know, times change, women can work and vote, slavery ended, and all that, but there's still value in understanding those pesky historical details to keep one in the present from shooting oneself in the foot. The main gist of Christian theological thinking though is that living on interest charged to others is immoral and sinful. Lending is a practice through which those that can absorb risk do so, with the hope of some reward come success of the venture. Lending only goes foul when the lender places their right to profit ahead of of their obligation to shoulder risk. My two cents anyway.
- throwaway123x2 8y ago
  The bank charged you interest based on what they thought the risk was of you breaking that promise. They knew the risk when they put out that loan.
  - hirundo 8y ago
    True, but I feel I would still feel shame in failing to keep my word, regardless of the intention of the other party, as long as they keep theirs.
    - throwaway123x2 8y ago
      Of course you should /intend/ to, when all else is equal. But once the cost to yourself of keeping that commitment skyrockets, it's just not worth it. Think of it as a captain staying with his ship. All else being equal the captain should stay on his ship. But if the ship is damaged beyond repair and it's sinking, a human life is far more valuable than a ship. Bankruptcy is leaving the ship when things are too far gone to save.
    - CiPHPerCoder 8y ago
      > True, but I feel I would still feel shame Please keep your shame to yourself. Your other comments in this thread sound like you're trying to invoke your shame upon others for declaring bankruptcy. If your intention was consistently "I would still feel shame" rather than "You should feel shame", that's fine, but please make that clearer.
      - hirundo 8y ago
        I would still feel shame, to the extent that the bankruptcy was due to my choices. I would judge others on the same basis.
        beagle3 8y ago
        May I ask what your cultural background is? "Choice" is a funny concept. There are cultures that made people choose between Seppuku and shame, with Seppuku being the honorable "choice". You seem to be accepting and even advocating a financial version of that "choice". It's not quite as common these days, and for the best IMO.
- howard941 8y ago
  The process itself is demeaning and success carries ten years of lasting, painful consequences. Moral pronouncements of shame and that one is a promise-breaker are superfluous and cruel.
- beagle3 8y ago
  The implicit promise was "I will act lawfully, which means that I will do my best to repay; however, if I find I am unable to repay, I will lawfully use the legal recourse for this situation, bankruptcy". It was not broken. One can't just declare themselves bankrupt - you have to go through the legal system to do that, which supposedly verifies that you indeed qualify for the protections afforded by bankruptcy. Note that this is the same legal system that enforces the lender's rights in case you are able to repay but will not.

luckylion 8y ago

I don't think anybody is "solving depression" by tackling problems some way or another. Rather: you're getting out of your depression and that allows you to tackle problems.

1337shadow 8y ago
chicken and egg, are you in depression because of the problems you have ? Then solving them one by one will eventually end up removing depression (that was the case for me)
- mello151 8y ago
  Being depressed and depression aren't the same thing though. I feel like OP just used described how he fixed a problem that had him down. Depression can occur without any real problems or issues. It's not something you can "just fix" by paying your bills.
  - braythwayt 8y ago
    I have suffered from depression. I have suffered from financial woes. I have discussed these matters with professionals. Adverse life events can trigger depression episodes in some people, and when you’re in an episode, adverse circumstances can both feel worse and lengthen the time in the episode. Finding a way to solve the problems or avoid them entirely is thus an important part of being as healthy as possible, but it is not in and of itself sufficient for maintaining or returning to health.
  - kzrdude 8y ago
    I have suffered from depression and there was a long list of issues that were solved along the way, in hindsight it feels like a step of stairs that had to be climbed, and finally I was out of the negative spiral and felt free of it.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
8y ago

blastbeat 8y ago

I know some people, who are in complete paralysis thanks to (overly) analytic thinking. On the other hand, from all the people I know having a major depression, nobody was able to advance simply by analyzing, deciding, acting, and without help. That said, it might worked for the author, but I doubt that it would work that smoothly for the majority of people with problem paralysis, let alone depression.

beagle3 8y ago

The recurring theme in almost all accounts of depression that I've read is the lack of will and/or care to get out of the state (and/or care for much of anything). This guy had a real problem - several of them, actually, and I admire him for pulling himself by the bootstraps going up; and for avoiding paralysis which is indeed an issue in situations like this. But being depressed for specific reasons (marriage failure, financial problems), solvable or not, is very different from clinical depression - which may look similar on the outside, but doesn't have a good reason. I don't want to belittle anyone or anything, but ... I've read countless descriptions of depression, and this one is unlike the others. The author may have suffered from real depression, but I don't believe his experience is applicable to other cases. To each his own, but the reason I'm pointing this out is to (hopefully) stop HNrs who are unaware of this, who may show this to their clinically depressed friends or family and say "see, you just need some analytical thinking". It may work - some people manage to overcome schizophrenia with analytical thinking - but they are AFAIK a tiny minority.

mykowebhn 8y ago

I wonder if it's not so much analytical thinking as opposed to just going out and doing something. Several forms of depression are exacerbated by ruminative thinking [1]. I'm not sure many depressed people would be able to successfully navigate the steps involved for analytical thinking without falling back into rumination. Rather than attempting analytical thinking first, I think it'd be much easier to initiate a simple activity, walk around the block, see a happy movie, visit a bookstore. Once one gets out of this cycle of ruminative thinking can one have the wherewithal to begin analytical thinking. [1] https://psychcentral.com/blog/why-ruminating-is-unhealthy-and-how-to-stop/ https://psychcentral.com/blog/why-ruminating-is-unhealthy-an...

drinfinity 8y ago

Dude, you had some unfortunate life events piled on top of each other causing turmoil. I sincerely don't wish that to happen to anyone and I congratulate you on feeling better, but.. I want to point out that your episode is not to be compared with actual sustained major depression, which will _eat you alive_. So utterly and completely will your soul be crushed that taking your own life will feel redundant, unnecessary. You have literally no idea of how deep this rabbit hole goes, thank god, but your advice trivialises the depth of depression and I have to wonder how this got so high on HN.. This is a blog with one post, one.

Causality1 8y ago
Exactly. That sounded nothing like clinical depression. That was a shitty few months that he fixed by getting a new job and paying off a massive debt.
mykowebhn 8y ago
Bizarrely, and maybe even unethically since we're talking about depression here, I think this blog post is a not too subtle way to sell their book on rock climbing.
rezeroed 8y ago
A similar thing happens with stories of burnout - people unaware of where that can take a person.
devinjflick 8y ago
I completely agree, what the author of the posts describes is traumatic life events, which often can be confused with clinical depression. Clinical depression is frequently worsened with analytic thinking, as analytic thinking, when depressed, reinforces the depression and doesn't pull you out of it. In clinical depression your brain chemistry is off in a way that doesn't rebound easily. Just "thinking about solving the problem" doesn't actually work and typically worsens symptoms. There's a reason why mindfulness and meditation show great results when used to treat reoccurring clinical depression. It's expressly because it allows you to escape analytical thinking and "doing" modes of thought. I suspect this climbed quickly on hacker news for two reasons. First the type of people that frequent here are intellectual types that believe "thinking about problems" is the best way to solve a problem and depression is just another problem to be solved. The second is the way that HackerNews ranks posts, where an upvoted post with a high/near equal number of comments rockets to the first page. The blog post is purely anecdotal, lacks any scientific basis, lacks a medical diagnosis, and suggests an oversimplified solution to a complex problem that the author is not an expert on. In essence it's a crap post promoting a rock climbing book.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

rmellow 8y ago

This corroborates how I got out of my own depression. No episode in particular caused it, just growing up around shitty people that mined my self-confidence and social skills. How did I get out of it? Just like the author, a switch flipped. I could keep the status quo and be miserable, or I could do something about It. Read that again: We require a definition of "It". I did therapy for years, which helped me learn how to organize my feelings and know myself better. What happened is that eventually I was able to identify all of what was making me sick - before that, I couldn't put it into words, I was simply miserable. In my particular case it stemmed from spending my early childhood in a first world country and moving back to our third world country when I was 7. Dealing with the aggressiveness and irrationality of my native culture is something that left me unable to successfully integrate in that society. This in turn of course means I had few friends, trouble finding a girlfriend and difficulty entertaining myself. I had to find a way out. Moving out of course would be difficult. Third world salaries, family didn't support my decision to leave the country, no good way to insert myself in a first world society with security. Fast forward 10 years: I managed to immigrate back into the first world through an education visa and convert it into a work visa. Have stable work with good pay, like-minded friendships, amazing girlfriend. I still have "scars" from back then: some social awkwardness is still there, and sometimes I have blue days. But I know how to manage myself and work to identify and attend to what's bothering me. The takeaway for me (not a doctor) is that some forms of depression manifest themselves in a healthy nervous system that's exposed to an adverse environment. We have some control over the environments we're in and that's where we should act. Standard disclaimer - still look for a doctor. Therapy was enough for me, but it may be the case you needs drugs. Seek help. While you don't have to do this alone, you can take ownership and try to solve your problems, even though it might take years. It's worth fighting for.

stiff 8y ago

The article is titled "Avoiding Problem Paralysis". The HN submission title is rather unfortunate, I think.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

aszantu 8y ago

My depression only lifted after I switched to keto, I've been depressed for 30 years. Low energy and everything was a drag until the switch... People(psychiatrists and psychologists) don't want to hear it, but food is connected to how we feel.

slothtrop 8y ago
I think this is understated. I went a different direction, but all the same, I think self-experimentation / personal science is worthwhile to that end. Diet and exercise should be the first line of defense.

sammycdubs 8y ago

One of the most insidious aspects of depression is thinking that you can solve it easily on your own. Holding the idea of "if I just do x, y, and z then I'll be ok" in front of you, then consistently failing cements the feeling that it's "your fault".

antisthenes 8y ago

> My first real experience with depression occurred when I was 25. I had recently separated from my ex-wife, and our divorce was pending. > My ex-wife had a tumultuous upbringing — her mother walked out on the family when she was eight, and her father died when she was 19, leaving her effectively the head of her household which included two younger brothers. She was at a time of great need, and we decided to get married because we were deeply in love, and I wanted to contribute to her stability. Incredible amount of red flags here for a working marriage. I'm sorry this happened to OP, but I'm really surprised his parents didn't try to stop this way before it happened.