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> society has reached the point where we do not apply intristic value to a baby inside the womb, only outside the womb This is completely false, and a typical

by klmr 8y ago

> society has reached the point where we do not apply intristic value to a baby inside the womb, only outside the womb This is completely false, and a typical mischaracterisation of abortion by anti-choice advocates. If what you said were true, abortion would generally be permitted up until the moment of birth. Yet virtually nobody wants that. Abortions are performed in extremely early stages of gestation. Where exactly to set the cutoff point is a touchy subject, but there’s a broad consensus that (with few exceptions) abortions are only permissible while the foetus hasn’t developed a connected central nervous system yet, has no functioning pain reception and no higher brain functions (in fact, in most countries the cutoff is considerably earlier than even that). In other words, “society” does not apply an intrinsic value to a clump of cells (if it did, chemotherapy and amputation would be similarly ethically problematic). Instead, value is derived through tangible qualities, such as thought, and pain reception. Disagree all you want but don’t invent irrational reasons because they’re easier to attack. That’s deeply dishonest.

jimmy1 8y ago
> and a typical mischaracterisation of abortion by anti-choice advocates. Be that as it may, whatever the "anti-choice" advocates are doing (I certainly don't know) this is my own opinion using my own reasoning and conclusions. You either value life or you don't. I don't subscribe to the unscientific viewpoint that at some magical point after gestation, a unique human biological life somehow went from being not valuable to valuable. > abortion would generally be permitted up until the moment of birth. Yet virtually nobody wants that. The recent events in the democratic party -- Governor Northam's statements, former Presidential candidate Clinton's desire to repeal the Hyde amendment, and the senate vote to block the Abortion Survivor Act -- strongly disagree with this. Sorry the cat is out of the bag, and you can't hide behind the euphemisms anymore. But it is OK -- just own it. > such as thought, and pain reception I am glad you said this! Dr. Jean A. Wright, a pediatric physician that graduated from Johns Hopkins states, "After 20 weeks of gestation [18 weeks post-fertilization], an unborn child has all the prerequisite anatomy, physiology, hormones, neurotransmitters, and electrical current to “close the loop” and create the conditions needed to perceive pain…The development of the perception of pain begins at the sixth week of life. By 20 weeks [18 weeks postfertilization], and perhaps even earlier, all the essential components of anatomy, physiology, and neurobiology exist to transmit painful sensations from the skin to the spinal cord and to the brain." Glad we agree there. > but don’t invent irrational reasons because they’re easier to attack. That’s deeply dishonest. You are the one building a strawmen here, maybe look in the mirror?
- sshumaker 8y ago
  Look up the statistics. Majority of abortions are before 21 weeks (only 1.3% after). The vast majority of late-term abortions are for medical reasons, such as non-viability of fetus or endangerment of mother. The point of the law is to prevent the government from interfering in a doctor’s ability to provide medical care. Northam made a gaffe when speaking, but he is an actual doctor who has witnessed the actual terrible tragedies that can happen during pregnancy, as opposed to armchair quarterbacks who are jumping up and down to get their religious worldviews validated by law.
- moosey 8y ago
  > After 20 weeks of gestation Doctors that do optional abortions at this point are, at worst, rare. At best, they'll lose their license. > You either value life or you don't. We are at an imbalance point on this planet, and we have overpopulated. Reducing the number of people being born in high carbon usage areas is probably one of the best things that we can do to protect life.
moosey 8y ago
> Abortions are performed in extremely early stages of gestation Typically, yes. Later abortions are necessary though as well, and when they happen typically it is to a person who wants to keep a child. My wife and I had a son that failed to develop heart chambers, noticed at a 24 week check up. We had two options: He was likely to die in utero, but if we did not terminate, there was a possibility he could survive to birth, only to immediately die a painful death. We opted to not increase human suffering with a procedure that is no longer available in the state of Ohio, due to the heartbeat bill. I might also add that women have lost their ability to have children due to that bill, it's god awful. Ultimately, I think we should accept that abortion is complicated, and get these pointless moralizations out of the law books.
- ams6110 8y ago
  A few (but not many) people would be against aborting a nonviable fetus. Fortunately these cases are rare, and IMO medically necessary abortion should not be conflated with "abortion on demand" in policy/laws. I'm sorry for you and your wife that you had to go through that, it must have been exceedingly difficult for you.

by klmr 8y ago

jimmy1 8y ago

> and a typical mischaracterisation of abortion by anti-choice advocates. Be that as it may, whatever the "anti-choice" advocates are doing (I certainly don't know) this is my own opinion using my own reasoning and conclusions. You either value life or you don't. I don't subscribe to the unscientific viewpoint that at some magical point after gestation, a unique human biological life somehow went from being not valuable to valuable. > abortion would generally be permitted up until the moment of birth. Yet virtually nobody wants that. The recent events in the democratic party -- Governor Northam's statements, former Presidential candidate Clinton's desire to repeal the Hyde amendment, and the senate vote to block the Abortion Survivor Act -- strongly disagree with this. Sorry the cat is out of the bag, and you can't hide behind the euphemisms anymore. But it is OK -- just own it. > such as thought, and pain reception I am glad you said this! Dr. Jean A. Wright, a pediatric physician that graduated from Johns Hopkins states, "After 20 weeks of gestation [18 weeks post-fertilization], an unborn child has all the prerequisite anatomy, physiology, hormones, neurotransmitters, and electrical current to “close the loop” and create the conditions needed to perceive pain…The development of the perception of pain begins at the sixth week of life. By 20 weeks [18 weeks postfertilization], and perhaps even earlier, all the essential components of anatomy, physiology, and neurobiology exist to transmit painful sensations from the skin to the spinal cord and to the brain." Glad we agree there. > but don’t invent irrational reasons because they’re easier to attack. That’s deeply dishonest. You are the one building a strawmen here, maybe look in the mirror?

sshumaker 8y ago
Look up the statistics. Majority of abortions are before 21 weeks (only 1.3% after). The vast majority of late-term abortions are for medical reasons, such as non-viability of fetus or endangerment of mother. The point of the law is to prevent the government from interfering in a doctor’s ability to provide medical care. Northam made a gaffe when speaking, but he is an actual doctor who has witnessed the actual terrible tragedies that can happen during pregnancy, as opposed to armchair quarterbacks who are jumping up and down to get their religious worldviews validated by law.
moosey 8y ago
> After 20 weeks of gestation Doctors that do optional abortions at this point are, at worst, rare. At best, they'll lose their license. > You either value life or you don't. We are at an imbalance point on this planet, and we have overpopulated. Reducing the number of people being born in high carbon usage areas is probably one of the best things that we can do to protect life.

moosey 8y ago

> Abortions are performed in extremely early stages of gestation Typically, yes. Later abortions are necessary though as well, and when they happen typically it is to a person who wants to keep a child. My wife and I had a son that failed to develop heart chambers, noticed at a 24 week check up. We had two options: He was likely to die in utero, but if we did not terminate, there was a possibility he could survive to birth, only to immediately die a painful death. We opted to not increase human suffering with a procedure that is no longer available in the state of Ohio, due to the heartbeat bill. I might also add that women have lost their ability to have children due to that bill, it's god awful. Ultimately, I think we should accept that abortion is complicated, and get these pointless moralizations out of the law books.

ams6110 8y ago
A few (but not many) people would be against aborting a nonviable fetus. Fortunately these cases are rare, and IMO medically necessary abortion should not be conflated with "abortion on demand" in policy/laws. I'm sorry for you and your wife that you had to go through that, it must have been exceedingly difficult for you.