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Liberapay – A recurrent donations platform
- vincvinc 8y agoI love this but the main page should clearly state the thing that makes everyone here so interested: > Liberapay takes 0%. > We are a European non-profit and open source. > We are funded by donations. Now it's "just a recurrent donations platform".
- NicoJuicy 8y agoSince Facebook fan subscriptions recently released. Another multinational corporation tries to claim 30% on the shoulders of developers/content creators/... I would rather see a "true" non-profit appear and claim this space. I also trust European non-profits more than American ones. The platform (Liberapay) lives on donations, supports different currencies, multiple languages, has multiple integrations ( Github, Gitlab, Youtube, ..) and doesn't take a commission. Which is the first time i see something like this. Note: No affliation with Liberapay, it was mentioned in another topic and i found it newsworthy ( Facebook fan subscriptions on the frontpage ... )
- hkai 8y agoThe question is not the money, the question is freedom of speech. A platform taking a commission is no big deal compared to the fact that it is allowed to determine what opinions are allowed and what aren't.
- louhike 8y agoI'm not sure I understand. The commission is a really big deal for people financially dependants on recurring donations.
- gsnedders 8y agoUnfortunately, as long as they're relying on Stripe and PayPal there are 1imitations to what is and isn't allowed: there are plenty of things that US payment processors make hard to deal with.
- fwn 8y agoNot trying to dispute your point, but out of curiosity: Is that actually true? > Donations to [...] can be paid using: a credit or debit card (Visa, MasterCard, American Express), a Euro bank account (SEPA Direct Debit), or a PayPal account. Could I send money through my regular European bank without using Stripe to pay on Liberapay? Does anyone know how they've implemented that?
- gsnedders 8y agoHuh, weird. On the creator side, they say: > We currently support processing payments through Stripe and PayPal. From that point of view, they could potentially get stuck paying creators operating in what Visa/MasterCard/etc. consider high-risk categories.
- jelv 8y agoSEPA is option of Stripe.
- gsnedders 8y agoHowever, Stripe is still a US payment processor, and will be subject to the same legal concerns as other US payment processors (such as those raised by FOSTA-SESTA for anyone involved in any sex work). While you might avoid Visa/MasterCard's rules that come from such a legislative environment, you won't avoid Stripe's.
- pjc50 8y agoThe platform has to determine what it's funding, because it's dependent on (a) local law (b) payment processors (c) the goodwill of the rest of its customers. Nobody's going to help someone fund their child-porn-to-Iran scheme, and nor should they.
- Y_Y 8y agoUnless you call it something cool, like "Tor".
- JetSpiegel 8y agoTor is a security tool that might be used for evil purposes. It's not a gun, Tor is not developed so that pedophiles can share child porn.
- Y_Y 8y agoAnd guns aren't developed for murders. But that isn't the point I was trying to glibly make. People contribute to lots of well-intentioned took that contribute some kind of indirectly to evil things.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- class4behavior 8y agoWell, Liberapay is for donations only, hence it is not a true alternative to Patreon and such. Also, you still have to pay the processing fees which, they say, should be below 5% on average. Nonetheless, it is pretty well-made and needed, especially since they care about internationalization.
- nspkr 8y agoI don't see any reason why Liberapay couldn't deploy a recurring donation system like Patreon's.
- pjc50 8y agoThey do. It's in the title of the article.
- class4behavior 8y agoWhat do you mean?? Liberapay supports solely recurring donations.
- pm7 8y agoIt's their choice to not compete with Patreon. See FAQ: https://en.liberapay.com/about/faq https://en.liberapay.com/about/faq "What are the differences between Liberapay and other recurrent crowdfunding platforms like Patreon? 1. Liberapay is only for donations, meaning that transactions must not be linked to a contract nor a promise of recompense."
- elcomet 8y agoThey don't allow donations on content publication like patreon does, because it can be seen as a purchase. They only allow reccuring donations.
- quadrangle 8y ago> not a true alternative to Patreon Translation: Not a paywall service. Patreon is largely that function for people. The ability to just get donations existed long before. A tool to combine donations with access to exclusive stuff is the main focus of Patreon. Personally, I see paywall-service as unfortunate because paywalls shouldn't exist. We need to find solutions (like patronage not tied to paywalls) to fund creative works that aren't restricted or freemium or whatever.
- trymas 8y agoI've found interesting that it's a fork for https://gratipay.com/ https://gratipay.com/
- luigi23 8y agoHa, so Facebook by claiming 30% of the profits basically advertised Patreon and Liberapay by not emphasizing the benefits. Instead of promoting 'ready-to-use' audience they've been caught in the middle between high percentage and fuzzy copyright rules. Good job
- iagooar 8y agoThis is what greed gets you.
- Loic 8y agoThis is interesting. The non-profit is a French association under the so called 1901 law[0]. In Germany it would the equivalent of an Eingetragener Verein[1]. This structure is flexible, well defined and relatively safe, that is, they are not going to run away with the money as you have quite some reporting work to do and the reporting must be available to everybody. So, from a legal structure point of view, this is really a nice thing. Now, they need to find their users. [0]: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_loi_de_1901 https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_loi_de_1901 [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registered_association_(Germany) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registered_association_(German...
- ancorevard 8y agoMore important than the 0% commission is how open this platform will actually be, or will it also engage in politics and police certain speech as they see fit?
- PaulRobinson 8y agoIt is the law in France - as it is with most countries - that some forms of speech and expression are not tolerated and companies must not provide a platform for them. Extremism on both the left and the right isn't tolerated. Nazism, Antisemitism, etc. all fall into the same bucket. France - where Liberapay is based - notoriously has the "Burka Ban", preventing women from covering their faces in public. In the UK "incitement to violence" is illegal, as are certain forms of protest and speech, and it is infamously severe when it comes to libel/slander law. Germany has outlawed many forms of right-wing nationalism in fear of fuelling neo-Nazis. Policing speech is inherently European. In some ways, it's why the United States exists, and one of the key differences in creed between European and American attitudes. Typically European attitudes around this veer towards "tragedy of the commons" arguments relating to violence, incitement to violence and discrimination. Attitudes are much, much more liberal in relation to showing and exhibiting nudity and it does not automatically equate that seeing breasts/genitals means content is sexual as it often does in the US. TL;DR: they're going to police speech, probably differently to others, but it will be policed. Nudity/(consenting adult) sexual content is more likely to get a pass more so than US companies would allow, but discrimination and non-centrist politics less likely.
- icebraining 8y ago> Nudity/(consenting adult) sexual content is more likely to get a pass more so than US companies would allow Unfortunately, Liberapay is beholden to its payment processors, which tend to ban sexual content; they're currently using Stripe, which bans quite a bit of stuff: https://stripe.com/us/restricted-businesses https://stripe.com/us/restricted-businesses
- Forbo 8y agoTheir platform their rules. Don't like it, then use hatreon or a direct payment method like cryptocurrency donations.
- beerlord 8y agoSo will free speech be allowed on this platform, or vigorously prosecuted like on Patreon?
- pjc50 8y agoInteresting, although really lightly used; if I'm reading this correctly the top payee only has 280ish subscriptions? https://liberapay.com/explore/individuals https://liberapay.com/explore/individuals
- kabacha 8y agoI love liberapay but everytime I go there I see that developing floss is not a viable career path even for the best of the best. Weekly income is no more than 100€, that's what like an hourly rate of top end freelance developer (which really a lot of these guys are). Projects like this are a very bittersweet victory for floss comunity. One step at a time I guess.
- class4behavior 8y ago>Weekly income is no more than 100€, that's what like an hourly rate of top end freelance developer (which really a lot of these guys are). You do realize that's per donor and a recurring payment.
- yorwba 8y agoIt's not per donor. Their total transfer volume last week was €1,589.34 according to the website. As far as I can tell, the only project with more than €100 in weekly income is Liberapay itself. EDIT: I see now that they cap donations per donor and recipient at €100 per week, but it doesn't seem like anyone gets close to the cap.
- mattbk1 8y agoThere may be donees who receive more than that but don't make the amount public, but you are correct about the total volume.
- cyborgx7 8y agoLiberapay is not the only platform that allows for free software to be funded. Here are two projects that are very well funded on Patreon. The platform itself is obviously not open source, but the projects themselves are: https://www.patreon.com/godotengine https://www.patreon.com/godotengine https://www.patreon.com/mastodon https://www.patreon.com/mastodon
- jelv 8y agoThere are so many good projects on Liberapay: https://liberapay.com/Mastodon/ https://liberapay.com/Mastodon/ https://liberapay.com/archiveis/ https://liberapay.com/archiveis/ https://liberapay.com/davidrevoy/ https://liberapay.com/davidrevoy/ https://liberapay.com/GIMP/ https://liberapay.com/GIMP/ https://liberapay.com/UBports/ https://liberapay.com/UBports/ https://liberapay.com/F-Droid-Data/ https://liberapay.com/F-Droid-Data/ https://liberapay.com/pixelfed/ https://liberapay.com/pixelfed/ (open source federated Instagram) https://liberapay.com/SFTtech/ https://liberapay.com/SFTtech/ (open source Age of Empires II) https://liberapay.com/Telegram-FOSS/ https://liberapay.com/Telegram-FOSS/ https://liberapay.com/phpMyAdmin/ https://liberapay.com/phpMyAdmin/ https://liberapay.com/Framasoft/ https://liberapay.com/Framasoft/ https://liberapay.com/matrixdotorg/ https://liberapay.com/matrixdotorg/ https://liberapay.com/Krita/ https://liberapay.com/Krita/ https://liberapay.com/Nextcloud/ https://liberapay.com/Nextcloud/ https://liberapay.com/ReactOS/ https://liberapay.com/ReactOS/
- worble 8y agoThis seems really great, I was thinking of doing something like this recently as well, although I was thinking more along lines of: - I have a set amount of money I wish to give each month (say £200) - Given I have setup x amount of people I wish to donate to, the system will automatically spread my money evenly amongst the creators, or using a given weighting provided - I'll be able to add any new creators to this list and not have to recalculate the amount given to each one, given I'm still putting the same amount of money into my "donation pot" Looking at their current system it seems to still follow the old paradigm of "set up a creator and set the amount for each of them individually", I hope that they could support something more like the above some day. Personally, the mental burden of having to continually reevaluate my monthly spend is probably the biggest burden when considering donating to someone new, which only gets larger as your donation list gets larger, so having the a system offload this I think would be a great way to encourage more donating.
- PaulRobinson 8y agoI hate to be the blockchain guy, but this sounds like something you could look at Ethereum or similar to provide. I'd consider using crypto if this use case existed.
- bandedetrappees 8y agoThis is exactly what the Basic Attention Token, linked to the Brave browser is supposed to do. You can even spread the donations based on the time spent on each website/videos. You should check it out.
- justinclift 8y agoSeems super niche. eg only works for things which are primarily a website or video
- class4behavior 8y agoI dunno. This may help donators manage their money better but receivers would be discouraged from using that platform since such a system would dissuade sponsors from focusing on a few projects and providing a stable income to projects.
- dharma1 8y agoAre donations made with Liberapay tax deductible for companies or individuals (at least in the EU?)
- Tepix 8y agoProbably only in France
- maeln 8y agoNot even. Only "charity" are tax deductible in France and not every Loi 1901 association are considered to be "charity". The state control the status that allow to be tax deductible and they strict rule about what your association need to be about to apply for it but also how it is organized. Now, if you use Librapay to give to an association or an NGO that has the status, nothing prevent them from giving you the tax deduction proof that you are going to need to show the tax office.
- cyphar 8y agoI've used Liberapay to donate to the Matrix.org project[1] for the past few years. It's a bit of a shame that the new Stripe integration is actually a direct bank transfer of your entire donation amount (in other words, recurring donations are actually lump sum donations). This doesn't make a difference for most projects, but it is something to consider -- though Liberapay has always required a lump sum deposit into their accounts for recurring payments so I guess this is a safer setup. [1]: https://en.liberapay.com/matrixdotorg/ https://en.liberapay.com/matrixdotorg/
- VWWHFSfQ 8y agoyou should call it something creative and catchy instead of lame liberapay. Open source people are the absolute worst at branding stuff
- venturin 8y agoRecurring payment, so many platforms now... https://maecen.com/ https://maecen.com/ https://www.tipeee.com/ https://www.tipeee.com/ https://patreon.com/ https://patreon.com/ https://www.buymeacoffee.com/ https://www.buymeacoffee.com/ https://flattr.com/ https://flattr.com/ https://d.rip/ https://d.rip/ What other platform to host a profile and raise money monthly do you know ?
- quadrangle 8y agoProbably the most complete up-to-date list: https://wiki.snowdrift.coop/market-research/other-crowdfunding https://wiki.snowdrift.coop/market-research/other-crowdfundi... It includes all you listed and much more. It's on the wiki of a still-in-progress platform that actually plans a novel and potentially better model than all the other things, at least in terms of funding public goods without paywalls (many of these sites are paywall-focused, freemium projects with some public, some exclusive publications).
- rebelidealist 8y agoShameless plug for my company https://Donorbox.org https://Donorbox.org we helped nonprofits raise over $150MM.
- dandare 8y agoAs a content creator, what I need is the ability to create multiple projects under one account. I want people to donate to separately to each individual piece of content I create. Ideally, a payment platform should offer an API for creating projects programmatically and retrieving information on the funding.
- kemitchell 8y agoTheir legal page seems to implies that they comply with European money transmission laws. How about the US? Recall: https://gratipay.news/gratipocalypse-42fd0ec0d9e8 https://gratipay.news/gratipocalypse-42fd0ec0d9e8
- mattbk1 8y agoMay not directly answer your question, but Gratipay held funds in escrow and Liberapay does not.
- carwyn 8y agoI'm surprised no one has mentioned Open Collective yet: https://opencollective.com/ https://opencollective.com/ They have an expense claim transparency system for each collective and a cool gifting system for larger organisations to allow their staff to donate to different collectives from the company pool.
- Deimorz 8y agoNote that Liberapay had to change payment processors, and in the process they changed how the payments work (https://medium.com/liberapay-blog/liberapay-status-update-a76403f4e0 https://medium.com/liberapay-blog/liberapay-status-update-a7...). I get the impression that they're getting into a state now where there's probably an "expectations mismatch" between what people expect to be doing when they set up a recurring donation compared to how Liberapay actually works. As the blog post mentions, now you can say "I want to donate $5/month" and you put in $60 to cover a year, but you have to pay that full $60 immediately, and the recipient also receives the whole $60 (minus fees) right away as well. After that point, there's not really any way for the donator to change their mind and stop donating after a few months, so it's more like a one-time donation with a reminder but still being presented as a smaller recurring one. I think the problem is that overall it will end up encouraging people to make smaller donations for shorter time periods because they won't necessarily want to commit for many months or years' worth up-front. Then that means that they have to be sent reminders to re-donate more often, which feels more annoying and will probably result in people just letting their donations lapse more often than repeatedly renewing them.
- kzrdude 8y agoYou diplomatically state this, but they fail to deliver on the most important thing of their service, surely there is a plan to fix this?
- cyphar 8y agoIt used to work this way, and the way it was done is that you would pre-load your account with money and then they would transfer it (transaction fees made withdrawals each month prohibitively expensive). Unfortunately they were forced to change payment processors (MangoPay kicked them off their platform without an explanation) and they weren't able to find a new payment processor that gave them the same feature (having a staging bank account). The blog post that GP linked explains things in far more detail.
- wjoe 8y agoThat's quite a drawback. I don't mind supporting some creators and YouTubers through Patreon or YouTube membershops because $5/month isn't all that much. But if I had to make a decision to spend $60 to support them that much for the year, I doubt I would do that for most. Some charge $50-$100/month on Patreon for certain benefits too, I doubt many would be willing to pay $1000 up front for that for a year. I'm surprised this is a payment processor limitation. I thought Stripe supported automatic recurring payments?
- jancsika 8y agoSuppose Terry Davis had had a liberapay account, and a developer had read an article about him being in a bad way at some point in the past. Suppose that developer then decided to donate some funds to Terry using liberapay. Would such a donation have complied with French hate speech laws?
- kemitchell 8y agoDo I correctly understand that Liberapay currently receives 20.50 EUR per week from 64 patrons? https://liberapay.com/LiberapayOrg/ https://liberapay.com/LiberapayOrg/
- mattbk1 8y agoThe organization behind the website does. The website development team is at https://liberapay.com/Liberapay/ https://liberapay.com/Liberapay/.