8 ms·

Sub-Acute Effects of Psilocybin on Empathy, Creative Thinking

156 points by pps 8y ago

MobileVet 8y ago
Prior research at Johns Hopkins has shown significant improvements in depression months after ingestion, so this would track with that. Sad that less than half of the study population returned for the 7 day evaluation point.
Cynddl 8y ago
> Due to the non-random sample, as well as the lack of placebo control, it could be argued that sub-acute enhancements are due to uncontrolled factors such as psychological expectations, or the environment in which the drug is taken. Indeed. The setting of the retreat (“After ingestion, participants were instructed to stay on the premises, and were able to do what they wanted, as long as they did not disturb other participants. Facilitators provided music, tools to draw and/or write, and food. In the evening, all participants and facilitators came back together as a group.”) might have had a significant effect on the results. These should be, at least, compared to a similar retreat where no psilocybin is ingested. Otherwise, the effects could come solely from the environment, e.g., a calm and relaxing retreat far from a busy life.
- DFHippie 8y ago
  If depression were so easy to treat it would hardly qualify as a mental illness. I think the purpose of the pleasant, relaxed setting was more to ensure the psilocybin had positive rather than negative effects on the participants. It's a precaution, like how in radiation therapy you point the radiation at the tumor rather than adjacent vital organs.
  - marviel 8y ago
    Sure, it makes sense --- but I think what your parent is trying to say is that a control would be fairly easy to implement --- just put some other people on the retreat and don't let them take anything.
    - im3w1l 8y ago
      I think it would be better to put them on a separate retreat. Otherwise they could piggyback on the group dynamics of the people who took the psilocybin.
      - marviel 8y ago
        Good point. Trying to equalize the retreats for time of year, weather, and other externalities could get tough. But with a big enough sample size maybe those features would be levelled out.
    - adrianN 8y ago
      Let them take a placebo.
      - JulianMorrison 8y ago
        Or a pleasant non-drug such as chamomile tea.
      - marviel 8y ago
        Yeah that would certainly be a better approach.
  - ataturk 8y ago
    People are right to be depressed--the modern world is inhumane. Depression, in this context, is a feature, not a bug. It's like saying that Londoners were depressed during the the Blitz. Yeah, well... Anyways, taking drugs like psilocybin or pot or whatever isn't going to fix anything.
  - adrianN 8y ago
    From what I heard it's not terribly hard to improve depression symptoms for a short time. Interventions with long-term effects are harder to come by.
virtualwhys 8y ago
> The truffle sample (15 grams; Psilocybe Hollandia) contained 1.9 mg of psilocybin and 10.5 mg of psilocin. Participants ingested an average (SD) 34.2 (8.9) grams of truffles throughout the day. Is that equivalent to 15 grams of dried mushrooms? If so that is a serious dose (over 1/2 an ounce!), there would be breakthroughs and breakdowns happening left and right given that amount. Seems unlikely that participants (particularly first timers) would ingest such a large quantity, even when spread out over a number of hours. Perhaps if one only drank the tea the effects wouldn't be as extreme as both drinking the tea and eating the remnants, but still, I'd have some concerns if the facilitator presented 15 grams to me and said something along the lines of, "now don't worry, just drink the tea and eat the rest, everything's going to be just fine [after you get through the maelstrom phase]" :)
- lagadu 8y ago
  Not sure about the weight concentration in truffles, but for fresh mushrooms, if my memory doesn't fail me, the weight for a similar psilocybin dosage is about 10:1, so 50g of fresh mushrooms would be the equivalent of 5g of dried ones.
- avenius 8y ago
  Truffles are less potent than mushrooms, so you need to more or less double the dosage. I would think that the 15 grams of truffles then would be equivalent to about 7-8 grams of dried mushrooms. Since it was ingested throughout the day, I would assume that's dosages equivalent to 1-3 grams spread out through the day.
  - virtualwhys 8y ago
    > I would think that the 15 grams of truffles then would be equivalent to about 7-8 grams of dried mushrooms Spread throughout the day that would be reasonable for a facilitated retreat, yes. Also depends on the variety, some strains can be extremely powerful, to the point that 3.5 grams is more than enough.
  - perfmode 8y ago
    I’ve found it to be closer to 10:1. 15g truffles felt like 1.5g.
SolaceQuantum 8y ago
I don't really know if the effects can be attributed to psilocybin here. It describes general well-being improvements after a social event that was also a retreat focused on a mutually enjoyable activity which was psilocybin exposure. I'm curious if this happens also in writer's retreats, furry or anime conventions, group hiking, or meditation retreats. The lack of even an attempt at control makes it a very weak paper overall and I wouldn't attribute it to support anything.
- prepend 8y ago
  Anecdotally, I follow a big con each year-DragonCon-and the warm fuzzy feeling during and after seems real to me. Part of it is the planning and build up the months leading to it, and seeing old friends and stuff, and part is being part of a cool, time boxed community. I would love to see a study of this effect.
  - mipmap04 8y ago
    Definitely have the same feeling after QuakeCon or music festivals as well.
  - acct1771 8y ago
    Concentration of a lot of really powerful soft tissue that makes neural electricity. Or, just human interaction is good. Either way, we belong in communities. This is what is meant by "love each other". Stronger in packs, etc.
- bluntfang 8y ago
  I think the difference here is experiencing an entheogen. A psilocybin experience can literally restore your spiritual faith. I have experienced different conventions and different drugs, and the after-glow of entheogenic drugs is different than the after-glow of a con or shared group experience.
  - escherplex 8y ago
    experiencing an entheogen. A psilocybin experience can literally restore your spiritual faith Interesting point. Given individuals temperamentally and experientially predisposed to depression and who report they know no other cognitive condition then entheogen exposure could supply the experience of alternate (positive) states of mind. Assuming these individuals report they want to entertain these induced positive states then you could imagine a therapeutic regimine which would involve use of psilocybin-like compounds coupled with presentation of social interaction simulations through 3D VR headsets outfitted with strategically placed EEG monitoring probes. If simulations are shaped to elicit negative reactions which subsequently are detected then audio queries can be inserted such as 'is this an appropriate reaction? What would be a better reaction or strategy?' which could aid individuals in shaping their own cognitive behavior. - does sound like a personalized interactive AI date-sim plus often the only winning move is not to play :-)
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
xutopia 8y ago
I'd be concerned about the drop out rate. They started with 55 the day of, 50 the next morning and 22 just after. That said I am a proponent of psilocybin research and believe there are some merits to it. I just think this is an odd part of the study.
etxm 8y ago
The one time I took psilocybin, my buddy and I sub-acutely plastered ourselves in apple sauce and paper towels so we’d look like mummies, then we watched ninja turtles for about four hours. Two thumbs up, would use again.
- newnewpdro 8y ago
  The only movie I've watched while tripping is eXistenZ, and that was an indescribable experience. I can imagine four hours of anthropomorphized turtles doing karate was also a good time, though probably less horrifying than eXistenZ. Out of curiosity, how old were you when this happened?
  - etxm 8y ago
    21, so 17 years ago. We git them the Florida way: Walk around a cow pasture and fill a grocery bag with mushrooms. Yum... the smell of fresh mushrooms.
str33t_punk 8y ago
I microdosed shrooms once (.1g) and it was distracting. I guess my creativity was 'up' but that was because I kept getting distracted by cool lights and random thoughts. It did motivate me to workout but mushrooms always make me want to exercise for some reason
- samirm 8y ago
  are you sure it was a microdose?
appsonify 8y ago
I tried Psilocybin on two different occasions and two very different trips. The first being pleasant, the second being my last. The first time I took it, I was outside. The very first thing I notice is just how vivid the green leaves swaying in the wind were. How calm, serene, peaceful. Then I started seeing the walls, "breathe". I've never been able to feel such inner peace before. In this moment, I realized, I have so much potential. We all do, yet it's our own doubts, and the internalized opinion of others or vanity metrics hindered our progress. I've found "spiritualism". I started playing Gran Turismo and realized how effortless I've been able to drive around the Nordschliefe. Normally I'd crash but I was putting no effort yet I was playing at a level that surpassed my normal everyday skill. Then I started joining meetups. Like groups that I never thought I'd join. I was suddenly interested in women's rights, I got interested in Hinduism. The next day, the inner peace continued to linger. However, after a few months, I was back to my old self. So this econd time, I upped the dose (bad idea). This time I stayed in my room (another bad idea). Instead of the inner peace, I was in a state of panic. There were some scary visuals like the Eye of Providence, I could feel the presence of some extra-terrestrial intelligence, looking at me, judging me with those unchanging Eye on the US dollar bill. I headed downstairs and the visuals just got stranger. I close my eyes and see complex geometrics, and reopen them to see math formulas everywhere. I was getting even more panicky and I head to lie down. Then I experienced what is called "Ego Death". I felt like I was dead. No identity, no awareness. It was awful, I longed for anything, any sort of order and structure I had in my normal reality. I was thinking "yup I fucked up. I poisoned myself. good god." During the ego death, the only certainty I felt was Math. Math is the language of both this universe and the fabric of our universe. We are made out of math. The gut feelings we get, the emotions, thoughts, they were ultimately mathematical manifestations. This was the intuition I was feeling, a spiritual plane where Everything is Everything while being Nothing. The ubiquity and the ephemeral nature of both our life, and the universe. There is a positive story out of this. I came out of the ego death, and I was sooooo thankful that there was something in this reality instead of nothing. The trip was not over, and I started seeing this bright pulsating object that looked like a symbol of sorts....kinda like a lightning symbol appear right above between the eye brows of the people I looked at! I am not a religious person and have not come into contact with any Hinduism materials but when I looked up the Hindu symbol for the Third Eye, I almost fell out of my chair-it was the same. I never even heard or seen the Third eye before, and I was just reading other people's trips and there were people who saw the exact same thing.... After the trip was over, the next morning, I woke feeling light. It felt like I sat in a sauna but instead of sweating out chemical toxins, my spirit felt like it was cleansed. I did make some positive life changes....but ended up right back where I was. It seems like you need to keep taking psilocybin to see the benefits but after that trip, I'd rather not open that door anymore. It was frightening more than it was awakening but perhaps because the possibility that our material reality that the Western civilization claims is be-all and end-all is not only incorrect but immature-civilizations and cultures that existed longer all have gone through such stages, and eventually gave way to spirituality at some point.

156 points by pps 8y ago

Prior research at Johns Hopkins has shown significant improvements in depression months after ingestion, so this would track with that. Sad that less than half of the study population returned for the 7 day evaluation point.

Cynddl 8y ago

> Due to the non-random sample, as well as the lack of placebo control, it could be argued that sub-acute enhancements are due to uncontrolled factors such as psychological expectations, or the environment in which the drug is taken. Indeed. The setting of the retreat (“After ingestion, participants were instructed to stay on the premises, and were able to do what they wanted, as long as they did not disturb other participants. Facilitators provided music, tools to draw and/or write, and food. In the evening, all participants and facilitators came back together as a group.”) might have had a significant effect on the results. These should be, at least, compared to a similar retreat where no psilocybin is ingested. Otherwise, the effects could come solely from the environment, e.g., a calm and relaxing retreat far from a busy life.

DFHippie 8y ago
If depression were so easy to treat it would hardly qualify as a mental illness. I think the purpose of the pleasant, relaxed setting was more to ensure the psilocybin had positive rather than negative effects on the participants. It's a precaution, like how in radiation therapy you point the radiation at the tumor rather than adjacent vital organs.
- marviel 8y ago
  Sure, it makes sense --- but I think what your parent is trying to say is that a control would be fairly easy to implement --- just put some other people on the retreat and don't let them take anything.
  - im3w1l 8y ago
    I think it would be better to put them on a separate retreat. Otherwise they could piggyback on the group dynamics of the people who took the psilocybin.
    - marviel 8y ago
      Good point. Trying to equalize the retreats for time of year, weather, and other externalities could get tough. But with a big enough sample size maybe those features would be levelled out.
  - adrianN 8y ago
    Let them take a placebo.
    - JulianMorrison 8y ago
      Or a pleasant non-drug such as chamomile tea.
    - marviel 8y ago
      Yeah that would certainly be a better approach.
- ataturk 8y ago
  People are right to be depressed--the modern world is inhumane. Depression, in this context, is a feature, not a bug. It's like saying that Londoners were depressed during the the Blitz. Yeah, well... Anyways, taking drugs like psilocybin or pot or whatever isn't going to fix anything.
- adrianN 8y ago
  From what I heard it's not terribly hard to improve depression symptoms for a short time. Interventions with long-term effects are harder to come by.

virtualwhys 8y ago

> The truffle sample (15 grams; Psilocybe Hollandia) contained 1.9 mg of psilocybin and 10.5 mg of psilocin. Participants ingested an average (SD) 34.2 (8.9) grams of truffles throughout the day. Is that equivalent to 15 grams of dried mushrooms? If so that is a serious dose (over 1/2 an ounce!), there would be breakthroughs and breakdowns happening left and right given that amount. Seems unlikely that participants (particularly first timers) would ingest such a large quantity, even when spread out over a number of hours. Perhaps if one only drank the tea the effects wouldn't be as extreme as both drinking the tea and eating the remnants, but still, I'd have some concerns if the facilitator presented 15 grams to me and said something along the lines of, "now don't worry, just drink the tea and eat the rest, everything's going to be just fine [after you get through the maelstrom phase]" :)

lagadu 8y ago
Not sure about the weight concentration in truffles, but for fresh mushrooms, if my memory doesn't fail me, the weight for a similar psilocybin dosage is about 10:1, so 50g of fresh mushrooms would be the equivalent of 5g of dried ones.
avenius 8y ago
Truffles are less potent than mushrooms, so you need to more or less double the dosage. I would think that the 15 grams of truffles then would be equivalent to about 7-8 grams of dried mushrooms. Since it was ingested throughout the day, I would assume that's dosages equivalent to 1-3 grams spread out through the day.
- virtualwhys 8y ago
  > I would think that the 15 grams of truffles then would be equivalent to about 7-8 grams of dried mushrooms Spread throughout the day that would be reasonable for a facilitated retreat, yes. Also depends on the variety, some strains can be extremely powerful, to the point that 3.5 grams is more than enough.
- perfmode 8y ago
  I’ve found it to be closer to 10:1. 15g truffles felt like 1.5g.

SolaceQuantum 8y ago

I don't really know if the effects can be attributed to psilocybin here. It describes general well-being improvements after a social event that was also a retreat focused on a mutually enjoyable activity which was psilocybin exposure. I'm curious if this happens also in writer's retreats, furry or anime conventions, group hiking, or meditation retreats. The lack of even an attempt at control makes it a very weak paper overall and I wouldn't attribute it to support anything.

prepend 8y ago
Anecdotally, I follow a big con each year-DragonCon-and the warm fuzzy feeling during and after seems real to me. Part of it is the planning and build up the months leading to it, and seeing old friends and stuff, and part is being part of a cool, time boxed community. I would love to see a study of this effect.
- mipmap04 8y ago
  Definitely have the same feeling after QuakeCon or music festivals as well.
- acct1771 8y ago
  Concentration of a lot of really powerful soft tissue that makes neural electricity. Or, just human interaction is good. Either way, we belong in communities. This is what is meant by "love each other". Stronger in packs, etc.
bluntfang 8y ago
I think the difference here is experiencing an entheogen. A psilocybin experience can literally restore your spiritual faith. I have experienced different conventions and different drugs, and the after-glow of entheogenic drugs is different than the after-glow of a con or shared group experience.
- escherplex 8y ago
  experiencing an entheogen. A psilocybin experience can literally restore your spiritual faith Interesting point. Given individuals temperamentally and experientially predisposed to depression and who report they know no other cognitive condition then entheogen exposure could supply the experience of alternate (positive) states of mind. Assuming these individuals report they want to entertain these induced positive states then you could imagine a therapeutic regimine which would involve use of psilocybin-like compounds coupled with presentation of social interaction simulations through 3D VR headsets outfitted with strategically placed EEG monitoring probes. If simulations are shaped to elicit negative reactions which subsequently are detected then audio queries can be inserted such as 'is this an appropriate reaction? What would be a better reaction or strategy?' which could aid individuals in shaping their own cognitive behavior. - does sound like a personalized interactive AI date-sim plus often the only winning move is not to play :-)

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

xutopia 8y ago

I'd be concerned about the drop out rate. They started with 55 the day of, 50 the next morning and 22 just after. That said I am a proponent of psilocybin research and believe there are some merits to it. I just think this is an odd part of the study.

etxm 8y ago

The one time I took psilocybin, my buddy and I sub-acutely plastered ourselves in apple sauce and paper towels so we’d look like mummies, then we watched ninja turtles for about four hours. Two thumbs up, would use again.

newnewpdro 8y ago
The only movie I've watched while tripping is eXistenZ, and that was an indescribable experience. I can imagine four hours of anthropomorphized turtles doing karate was also a good time, though probably less horrifying than eXistenZ. Out of curiosity, how old were you when this happened?
- etxm 8y ago
  21, so 17 years ago. We git them the Florida way: Walk around a cow pasture and fill a grocery bag with mushrooms. Yum... the smell of fresh mushrooms.

str33t_punk 8y ago

I microdosed shrooms once (.1g) and it was distracting. I guess my creativity was 'up' but that was because I kept getting distracted by cool lights and random thoughts. It did motivate me to workout but mushrooms always make me want to exercise for some reason

samirm 8y ago
are you sure it was a microdose?

appsonify 8y ago

I tried Psilocybin on two different occasions and two very different trips. The first being pleasant, the second being my last. The first time I took it, I was outside. The very first thing I notice is just how vivid the green leaves swaying in the wind were. How calm, serene, peaceful. Then I started seeing the walls, "breathe". I've never been able to feel such inner peace before. In this moment, I realized, I have so much potential. We all do, yet it's our own doubts, and the internalized opinion of others or vanity metrics hindered our progress. I've found "spiritualism". I started playing Gran Turismo and realized how effortless I've been able to drive around the Nordschliefe. Normally I'd crash but I was putting no effort yet I was playing at a level that surpassed my normal everyday skill. Then I started joining meetups. Like groups that I never thought I'd join. I was suddenly interested in women's rights, I got interested in Hinduism. The next day, the inner peace continued to linger. However, after a few months, I was back to my old self. So this econd time, I upped the dose (bad idea). This time I stayed in my room (another bad idea). Instead of the inner peace, I was in a state of panic. There were some scary visuals like the Eye of Providence, I could feel the presence of some extra-terrestrial intelligence, looking at me, judging me with those unchanging Eye on the US dollar bill. I headed downstairs and the visuals just got stranger. I close my eyes and see complex geometrics, and reopen them to see math formulas everywhere. I was getting even more panicky and I head to lie down. Then I experienced what is called "Ego Death". I felt like I was dead. No identity, no awareness. It was awful, I longed for anything, any sort of order and structure I had in my normal reality. I was thinking "yup I fucked up. I poisoned myself. good god." During the ego death, the only certainty I felt was Math. Math is the language of both this universe and the fabric of our universe. We are made out of math. The gut feelings we get, the emotions, thoughts, they were ultimately mathematical manifestations. This was the intuition I was feeling, a spiritual plane where Everything is Everything while being Nothing. The ubiquity and the ephemeral nature of both our life, and the universe. There is a positive story out of this. I came out of the ego death, and I was sooooo thankful that there was something in this reality instead of nothing. The trip was not over, and I started seeing this bright pulsating object that looked like a symbol of sorts....kinda like a lightning symbol appear right above between the eye brows of the people I looked at! I am not a religious person and have not come into contact with any Hinduism materials but when I looked up the Hindu symbol for the Third Eye, I almost fell out of my chair-it was the same. I never even heard or seen the Third eye before, and I was just reading other people's trips and there were people who saw the exact same thing.... After the trip was over, the next morning, I woke feeling light. It felt like I sat in a sauna but instead of sweating out chemical toxins, my spirit felt like it was cleansed. I did make some positive life changes....but ended up right back where I was. It seems like you need to keep taking psilocybin to see the benefits but after that trip, I'd rather not open that door anymore. It was frightening more than it was awakening but perhaps because the possibility that our material reality that the Western civilization claims is be-all and end-all is not only incorrect but immature-civilizations and cultures that existed longer all have gone through such stages, and eventually gave way to spirituality at some point.