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It usually does. Actually I am not familiar with one example where public rail actually makes a profit, in real terms. All public rail systems I know or have re

It usually does. Actually I am not familiar with one example where public rail actually makes a profit, in real terms. All public rail systems I know or have read about are subsidized by the state either directly or via subsidizing the fare for the traveler (or both).

Gibbon1 8y ago
Years ago I read an article where the author argued that between network effects and indirect beneficiaries of transportation services markets are extremely sub-optimal. Also the value of the service varies widely as well. One box contains a toaster anotherbox contains a vital part needed to get a machine shop back up and running.
atoav 8y ago
I think we should stop counting profit as “how much tickets you sold” minus “how much money you spent”, but look at the effects of a public train system on the whole economy. I grew up in the Alps and I can guarantee that certain very profitable touristic locations wouldn’t even remotely work if there was no affordable and reliable train network that connected them to a airport, unless you want to turn some alpine area into a huge parking lot. On the same line that connects that spot to the cities there might be ten completely uninteresting villages whose population kinda relies on these trains to e.g. go to school, go shopping in the city etc. Some lines might not have any touristic benefit, but they raise the value of the whole network because it increases the destinations you can reach via train. In nations that have high petrol prices and where train networks already exist, train networks can be unprofitable and still boost economy as a whole. The question is: should everybody finance everybody elses mobility to a certain degree when it benefits economy as a whole? For me the answer is quite clear. I grew up in small village in some valley in the alps. Without affordable public transport I would have been devastated as a teenager. A profitable train network usually takes that profit from somewhere and that somewhere is typically public. I’d rather have an unprofitable train network that works, paid by my taxes than a profitable that doesn’t work even if I were prepared to pay for it. Same goes for Internet, Mobile networks, Water, Electricity.
- close04 8y ago
  That wasn't my point. I only highlighted the fact that indeed they operate at a loss and the companies themselves or the price of the ticket are partially funded/subsidized by the state. This is why I suggested they don't make a profit "in real terms", meaning actual profit in the company's financial report, not indirect effects. You don't seem to contradict this despite the downvote. The point was not to debate whether this is a good move or not, if it stimulates an economy or not, etc. I live in a country here the rail system is heavily subsidized and I'm happy for it as it is.
  - atoav 8y ago
    Sorry if I read something into your post that you didn’t intend to say. Lack of profit is often used as an argument against public transport in discussions, especially from people who grew up in places where cars ar the norm, petrol is cheap and there is no real public transport (e.g. the US). Sorry if I misrepresented your post.

Gibbon1 8y ago

Years ago I read an article where the author argued that between network effects and indirect beneficiaries of transportation services markets are extremely sub-optimal. Also the value of the service varies widely as well. One box contains a toaster anotherbox contains a vital part needed to get a machine shop back up and running.

atoav 8y ago

I think we should stop counting profit as “how much tickets you sold” minus “how much money you spent”, but look at the effects of a public train system on the whole economy. I grew up in the Alps and I can guarantee that certain very profitable touristic locations wouldn’t even remotely work if there was no affordable and reliable train network that connected them to a airport, unless you want to turn some alpine area into a huge parking lot. On the same line that connects that spot to the cities there might be ten completely uninteresting villages whose population kinda relies on these trains to e.g. go to school, go shopping in the city etc. Some lines might not have any touristic benefit, but they raise the value of the whole network because it increases the destinations you can reach via train. In nations that have high petrol prices and where train networks already exist, train networks can be unprofitable and still boost economy as a whole. The question is: should everybody finance everybody elses mobility to a certain degree when it benefits economy as a whole? For me the answer is quite clear. I grew up in small village in some valley in the alps. Without affordable public transport I would have been devastated as a teenager. A profitable train network usually takes that profit from somewhere and that somewhere is typically public. I’d rather have an unprofitable train network that works, paid by my taxes than a profitable that doesn’t work even if I were prepared to pay for it. Same goes for Internet, Mobile networks, Water, Electricity.

close04 8y ago
That wasn't my point. I only highlighted the fact that indeed they operate at a loss and the companies themselves or the price of the ticket are partially funded/subsidized by the state. This is why I suggested they don't make a profit "in real terms", meaning actual profit in the company's financial report, not indirect effects. You don't seem to contradict this despite the downvote. The point was not to debate whether this is a good move or not, if it stimulates an economy or not, etc. I live in a country here the rail system is heavily subsidized and I'm happy for it as it is.
- atoav 8y ago
  Sorry if I read something into your post that you didn’t intend to say. Lack of profit is often used as an argument against public transport in discussions, especially from people who grew up in places where cars ar the norm, petrol is cheap and there is no real public transport (e.g. the US). Sorry if I misrepresented your post.